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Which of these sockets are in the right place? (If any)
- Thread starter Tingly
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Sockets?
Really?
The tops of my light switches (new ones in the parts of the house extensively "re-modelled" a few years ago) are at about 1380mm
The sockets are about 460mm.
One electrician I've worked for has a piece of 6mm ply with 2 holes, the size of a double back box, one way up the hole is 300mm to middle, tother way up is 300mm to top, however that also represents as 300mm to bottom using the top of the template.
Marking kitchen sockets is a breeze if the worktop is in situ
Yeah.
Newbuilds, sockets and switches tend to be around 1200mm
In kitchens , (subject of this post .)
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Part M building regulations does not seem to make much sense
Eye level in a wheelchair is around 1200 mm, so any item needing to be viewed, should be visible at that height, so either control knobs need to be below 1200 mm or readings taken from the side, not the top, also a counter top is often around 900 mm high, so the viewing angle in a wheelchair is 30º to 45º and any display on touch controls must be viewable at that angle.
The depth of a worktop is also a consideration, I can reach around 800 mm, leaning forward a little more, shoulder height as around 1100 mm so that is the height where one can best reach switches and sockets at the back of a counter top. Remember the 300 mm from corners applies in kitchens as well, so a counter top going around a corner likely means 600 mm from the corner of the room. It is the cupboard corner that counts.
How one can get TRV heads high enough to comply, I don't know? But someone standing can bend down, someone in a wheelchair can't jump up. Kitchen is the main problem, eye level ovens where one can't read the temperature as designed to be read from above, and hobs with touch controls, which are invisible from the height of a wheelchair user's eye. And extractors with the switch far too high to reach. And above counter sockets too close to the corners.
In the main they are looking at wheelchair use, and one can nearly touch the ground in a wheelchair, but the axle height of wheelchair wheel is the height where damage can happen due to wheelchairs. So 150 mm from the floor should be avoided as that is about the height of the wheel centre of a self-propelled wheelchair, so 300 mm means in the main out of harms way.
Eye level in a wheelchair is around 1200 mm, so any item needing to be viewed, should be visible at that height, so either control knobs need to be below 1200 mm or readings taken from the side, not the top, also a counter top is often around 900 mm high, so the viewing angle in a wheelchair is 30º to 45º and any display on touch controls must be viewable at that angle.
The depth of a worktop is also a consideration, I can reach around 800 mm, leaning forward a little more, shoulder height as around 1100 mm so that is the height where one can best reach switches and sockets at the back of a counter top. Remember the 300 mm from corners applies in kitchens as well, so a counter top going around a corner likely means 600 mm from the corner of the room. It is the cupboard corner that counts.
How one can get TRV heads high enough to comply, I don't know? But someone standing can bend down, someone in a wheelchair can't jump up. Kitchen is the main problem, eye level ovens where one can't read the temperature as designed to be read from above, and hobs with touch controls, which are invisible from the height of a wheelchair user's eye. And extractors with the switch far too high to reach. And above counter sockets too close to the corners.
Approved Document M - not the law - Guidance; feel free to ignore.
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I did, my mother in a wheelchair opened my eyes to the daft bits, like it seems one's arms grow when you leave the house, or why would the highs in domestic premises be higher than commercial?
I don't think it's that far off for above-counter/bench sockets in a kitchen or workshop etc. In such situations, I would imagine that around 1000 mm is probably about the absolute minimum.
Kitchen surfaces are usually 880mm plus top so 910-930mm. If the bottom of the backbox (my typical measurement reference) were at 1000mm the bottom of the socket would be around 990mm and the L/N pins at 1010mm, a typical moulded plug requires around 60mm below the pins to avoid severe bending or 950mm leaving only 20-40mm of clearance. Try a Masterplug with 2.5mm² cable and that becomes next to no clearance.
I'd vehamently avoid anything that low/close.
In one of the workshops I worked in the dado trunking had basically been stood on the work top and screwed to the wall, a week of that and I removed the fixings, shortened the trunking feeding it and stood it on cardboard boxes about 400mm tall then refixed it to the wall. I didn't even have to alter any wiring, just lose 400mm worth.
During my working life I have noted a few changes to the mindset of what Electricians and/or the gen public expect of things.
In my teenage years sockets were often immediately above skirting boards or indeed in the mid of the skirting board itself. This was very common - I guess folk did not like seeing sockets (and switches too sometimes) and ease of use took second place.
Many were at the bottom of a skirting board and considerable strain on plug flexes in some instances. Indeed it was not unknown to see some mounted at 90 degrees from the floor or even upside down.
After I started my working life it gradually became an unofficial recommendation of various organisations in the housing industry and various lenders and local authorities to place sockets one foot (300mm) above the floor, sometimes taken to socket centres and sometimes to underside position, that pretty much remained for a few years, switches were often around 52 or sometimes 54 inches to centre mostly.
Indeed I did sometimes suggest to folk have a socket around hand height from the floor or just slightly below that as being best for actual ease of usage although I often got the comment "I do not want a socket halfway up my wall!" nowhere near to half way (and ceilings used to be taller in those days too!) but you get the mindset though - too much on view, we don`t like to see them, we prefer to struggle to plug/unplug instead. Oh dear.
Regarding lights - in my own town most rooms had a lightswitch near the door inside the room, even to the extent that you needed to walk to/from a hallway or stairway either in darkness before getting to room then switching the light on or in the light, switch the room light on then walk back thru the hall/stair to turn that light off.
Sometimes these light switches were near enough back to back on a wall and sometimes quite far away.
In a neighbouring town a lot of switches were ganged together, 3 gang switch at bottom of stairs and a 3 gang at top of stairs.
Sometimes 2 way switching to front door and back door and often not (so on entering the house by an external door you need to walk thru the room with no lighting to the bottom of the stairs then switch on the light to the room you had just travelled thru, unless you had a torch to help prevent you fall over some furniture or something).
And it was considered normal.
The bedroom light switch was usually just inside the door of the bedroom, some had a pullswitch over the bed too (or instead of) , some did not.
A lot of people called them "Lazy Switches" , what was lazy about having a sensibly placed pull switch over the bed though?
Sometimes the sole switch would be just in at the door not over the bed and sometimes near a wall not near the door and often nowhere near where the bed would ever likely be.
Some people called them "Lazy Betty pull switches" I have no idea who Betty was, it seemed to be an expression more common in the Manchester area I think too.
Pendants were often not fitted centrally in bedrooms but rather very biased towards the window, even if thick dark curtains, to avoid casting shadows whilst getting undressed.
In both towns and the surrounding towns they were mostly old stone terraced houses, many two up and two down, some had a kitchen but some did not. All built in the days when "Cotton was King".
A lot of these habits survived for ages afterwards.
(I did start typing half of this this morning, before the last few posts)
In my teenage years sockets were often immediately above skirting boards or indeed in the mid of the skirting board itself. This was very common - I guess folk did not like seeing sockets (and switches too sometimes) and ease of use took second place.
Many were at the bottom of a skirting board and considerable strain on plug flexes in some instances. Indeed it was not unknown to see some mounted at 90 degrees from the floor or even upside down.
After I started my working life it gradually became an unofficial recommendation of various organisations in the housing industry and various lenders and local authorities to place sockets one foot (300mm) above the floor, sometimes taken to socket centres and sometimes to underside position, that pretty much remained for a few years, switches were often around 52 or sometimes 54 inches to centre mostly.
Indeed I did sometimes suggest to folk have a socket around hand height from the floor or just slightly below that as being best for actual ease of usage although I often got the comment "I do not want a socket halfway up my wall!" nowhere near to half way (and ceilings used to be taller in those days too!) but you get the mindset though - too much on view, we don`t like to see them, we prefer to struggle to plug/unplug instead. Oh dear.
Regarding lights - in my own town most rooms had a lightswitch near the door inside the room, even to the extent that you needed to walk to/from a hallway or stairway either in darkness before getting to room then switching the light on or in the light, switch the room light on then walk back thru the hall/stair to turn that light off.
Sometimes these light switches were near enough back to back on a wall and sometimes quite far away.
In a neighbouring town a lot of switches were ganged together, 3 gang switch at bottom of stairs and a 3 gang at top of stairs.
Sometimes 2 way switching to front door and back door and often not (so on entering the house by an external door you need to walk thru the room with no lighting to the bottom of the stairs then switch on the light to the room you had just travelled thru, unless you had a torch to help prevent you fall over some furniture or something).
And it was considered normal.
The bedroom light switch was usually just inside the door of the bedroom, some had a pullswitch over the bed too (or instead of) , some did not.
A lot of people called them "Lazy Switches" , what was lazy about having a sensibly placed pull switch over the bed though?
Sometimes the sole switch would be just in at the door not over the bed and sometimes near a wall not near the door and often nowhere near where the bed would ever likely be.
Some people called them "Lazy Betty pull switches" I have no idea who Betty was, it seemed to be an expression more common in the Manchester area I think too.
Pendants were often not fitted centrally in bedrooms but rather very biased towards the window, even if thick dark curtains, to avoid casting shadows whilst getting undressed.
In both towns and the surrounding towns they were mostly old stone terraced houses, many two up and two down, some had a kitchen but some did not. All built in the days when "Cotton was King".
A lot of these habits survived for ages afterwards.
(I did start typing half of this this morning, before the last few posts)
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That, was more about ease of installation. You could drill a hole in the skirting, and push a cable through into the under-floor. The alternative, was to chop out the plaster above the skirting, then down the back of the skirting.
Yes Harry maybe, but it became what folks got used to being "normal" and woe betide anyone who makes changes to routines even if those changes are for the better.
Some folks had their evening meal at 6pm some at 5:30 some at 7 etc etc and you might ask them to have it ten minutes earlier or later than the normal time and you would believe they thought that the Earth would stop rotating if they changed their habits. some would have the same meal everyday of the week , it was often Fish and Chips on Friday, whether by religion or because most folk got paid cash on Thursdays for last weeks work. So every day was mapped out what the meal that day was. I worked with some folk who had that mindset.
I think that if I had decided to play a trick on them by altering their watches by ten minutes as they were washing their hands then I would have been lynched for beggaring up the whole day or week or life. LOL.
Some folks had their evening meal at 6pm some at 5:30 some at 7 etc etc and you might ask them to have it ten minutes earlier or later than the normal time and you would believe they thought that the Earth would stop rotating if they changed their habits. some would have the same meal everyday of the week , it was often Fish and Chips on Friday, whether by religion or because most folk got paid cash on Thursdays for last weeks work. So every day was mapped out what the meal that day was. I worked with some folk who had that mindset.
I think that if I had decided to play a trick on them by altering their watches by ten minutes as they were washing their hands then I would have been lynched for beggaring up the whole day or week or life. LOL.
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The early ones, were an actual switch, connected to a ceiling rose, with three cotton covered flexibles between rose and switch.
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