Architect drawings / costs

[conorcook]

Hi, currently planning a small 3 x 3.6m extension to the back of my house, this squares off a previous extension. Very very simple build that will become a bathroom.
just been getting a few quotes for plans from architects and structural
Engineers.
Currently quotes are varying from £1500 + VAT for basic architect drawings - £1000 for structural engineer… plus all the other costs. It’s blowing my mind how much it costs before you even break ground! I was hoping to do the footings and a fair bit of the roof myself along with the floor and all the internals and bring it in between £1k-£1500 PSM.

I suppose my question is : how much of the drawings can I do myself?
Are there any work arounds when it comes to the architects fees? Cheaper ways to do it?

Structural engineer - should I just get lots of quotes on? I know there’s nothing I can do to diy that but the prices are wild.

Have added the current floor plan and the proposed layout I want.

Any help / advice is much appreciated.

Angus - north east Scotland.

 

[stevie888]

For a simple job like this you only need a decent technician for the drawings and any simple beams. A grand plus fees would be my charge.

Nothing to stop you doing your own drawings but you'll have to sort all the details out.

 

[conorcook]

For a simple job like this you only need a decent technician for the drawings and any simple beams. A grand plus fees would be my charge.

Nothing to stop you doing your own drawings but you'll have to sort all the details out.

Are you an architect or engineer?
As far as I’m aware there would be no steels
Or anything needed, just footings two walls and a flat roof! No load bearing walls to come down either The highest quote I’ve had for architect and engineer - all fees was over £5k which makes the extension pointless if that’s the starting point. I’m not trying to be cheap or stingy I’m just trying to be clever with a limited budget you know .

 

[cdbe]

If it's PD just do it on a building notice.

There's plenty on here who've built far more complicated extensions with little previous knowledge or experience.

Familiarise yourself with the building regs and put your proposals on here - you'll undoubtedly receive more than enough detailed advice on every aspect.

If you're unsure ask before you do something rather than after. If you want to do parts and contract out other bits then people will tell you what they did themselves (and what they wish they hadn't!).

The only caveat I would offer is that you should remind people that you're in Scotland and check all advise complies with their regs.

 

[stevie888]

Are you an architect or engineer?
As far as I’m aware there would be no steels
Or anything needed, just footings two walls and a flat roof! No load bearing walls to come down either The highest quote I’ve had for architect and engineer - all fees was over £5k which makes the extension pointless if that’s the starting point. I’m not trying to be cheap or stingy I’m just trying to be clever with a limited budget you know .

I'm an engineer by training and quallification but been doing architectural work for 20+ years. Prettty much retired now.

I said simple beams: in reality any member carrying a load needs to be sized, be it joist, rafter, lintel or supporting beam, plus of course the foundations, though most can come from tables. You have got the basic drawing already: you just need a section and construction details.

Are you diying? There's a lot of money to be saved if you can do some yourself.

I have to disagree with cdbe's first line I fear (the rest I agree 100%): I wouldn't touch Building Notice (except for an experienced builder working for himself). It matters not if it's PD or PP, the reality is that if something is built wrong on notice it will have to be redone and there will be cost/delay. Certainly south of the border the fees charged by BC are usually higher for notice work and they freely admit that they don't like working that way as they have more to do and more potential conflict.

Get drawings done, stick them up on here for comment if you like, get them approved (you'll probably have to do a few tweaks) and you then have something specific to work to or for a builder to give you an accurate price.

 

[^woody^]

Lots of people think drawing an extension is just a matter of a few lines attached to a larger rectangle and add a window and door here and there.

It's actually a bit more than that and involves design - thinking about what's possible, practical and how it will be built.

It's no good saving £1500 on plan drawings, if it's going to add £2000 in build costs.

But of course, if you know what you are doing, what is involved, what statutory permissions and constraints apply, what regulations and standards apply, and how to draw details that actually work, and builders can understand, then yes you can draw your own. Adn this also applies to any plan drawer you may employ - many do limited work and leave you and the builder scratching their head

Use of a structural engineer for specialist foundations, and other structural calculations that may be required should be defined, and where necessary included in any quote. It's no good a plan monkey drawing a design that can't be justified by calculation if required by building control. Simialrly, you need to know who has to instruct any structural engineer and if there are additional cost.

Excavations under common law responsibilities, drain build over agreements may apply - and associated costs.

There may be different costs for planning drawings and building control drawings. Get these itemised, along with how will alterations be priced or are they included?

Does this need to be designed to a budget? What standard should the internal fit out be - is the plan drawer designing the internals or is that to be taken care of by the builder or others?

Anyone doing the design should make you aware of all costs to draw and build the extension, including any potential costs that may crop up.
Get fully itemised and inclusive quotes. Know what you may be committing to before going any further - both design costs and build costs.

 

[wessex101]

I think the reference to the structural engineer is because the OP is in Scotland. Don't they have that strange system where all building regulations applications need to be self certified by a structural engineer?
I have a nasty feeling that England wants to go down a similar route with the new Building Safety Act post Grenfell. Has anyone noticed that with applications now the designer has to sign a statement that the design complies with building regulations? I thought that was building control's job?
Also under the Act a domestic client has a duty to appoint a competent designer and a competent contractor! I don't know what the implications are if it is a DIY design and build? I predict trouble ahead.

 

[stevie888]

I think the reference to the structural engineer is because the OP is in Scotland. Don't they have that strange system where all building regulations applications need to be self certified by a structural engineer?
I have a nasty feeling that England wants to go down a similar route with the new Building Safety Act post Grenfell. Has anyone noticed that with applications now the designer has to sign a statement that the design complies with building regulations? I thought that was building control's job?
Also under the Act a domestic client has a duty to appoint a competent designer and a competent contractor! I don't know what the implications are if it is a DIY design and build? I predict trouble ahead.

I fear you may be right Wessex. I reckon I'm retiring at the right time. Just my own new place to sort with the client from hel!!

 

[mrrusty]

I have a nasty feeling that England wants to go down a similar route with the new Building Safety Act post Grenfell. Has anyone noticed that with applications now the designer has to sign a statement that the design complies with building regulations? I thought that was building control's job?
Also under the Act a domestic client has a duty to appoint a competent designer and a competent contractor! I don't know what the implications are if it is a DIY design and build? I predict trouble ahead.

From a couple of threads I've seen elsewhere I think this is already on us. There was a thread somewhere where BC were not accepting a DIY builder to be a competent designer to sign off, and he hadn't kept the architect on board as Principal Designer

 

[noseall]

From a couple of threads I've seen elsewhere I think this is already on us. There was a thread somewhere where BC were not accepting a DIY builder to be a competent designer to sign off, and he hadn't kept the architect on board as Principal Designer

There are three signatures required on the Notice of Completion, the principle contractor being one of them and the principle designer,
with the client being the other.

 

[mrrusty]

@noseall - yes, but what happens on a simple DIY-led project where the DIY-er or self-builder employs the trades. That DIYer might be competent to project manage, the trades competent to construct, but what if the DIY-er has no official bits of paper to prove "competency" as PD even if for the purpose of a small project they are more than competent practically. And where does this leave the building notice system with no plans. And what about small jobs under building control, like removing a chimney stack? still need a principal designer?

I don't like the way the wind is blowing here, although I'm now probably personally past the point where I will take on any more jobs that require building control.

I am so glad that on 31st January I retire from my day job - I'm sales and commercial director for an SME contractor in the MEP part of the construction industry - we generally work on hospital projects, and the paperwork and box-ticking is getting ridiculous. It's becoming a different world - not like the good old, bad old days!

 

[noseall]

@noseall - yes, but what happens on a simple DIY-led project where the DIY-er or self-builder employs the trades. That DIYer might be competent to project manage, the trades competent to construct, but what if the DIY-er has no official bits of paper to prove "competency" as PD even if for the purpose of a small project they are more than competent practically. And where does this leave the building notice system with no plans. And what about small jobs under building control, like removing a chimney stack? still need a principal designer?

I don't like the way the wind is blowing here, although I'm now probably personally past the point where I will take on any more jobs that require building control.

I'm not sure whether competency is the issue, probably more to do with liability.

 

[mrrusty]

@noseall maybe. But liability to whom? It is the clients ultimate responsibility to ensure compliance, and if the client and PD are the same person? Or are you thinking that BC are picking up liability, in which case we have a completely different kettle of poisson!

I think this is a developing situation caused by the BSA and we haven't heard the last of it......

 

[robinbanks]

Yes, you can draw your own plans.. You can work with your building control department to come up with a design that meets regulation in terms of how it's built and planning departments accept DIY plans for where it will be built and what it will look like

There will be a lot of research for you to do to find out how the building should be built to comply, and how it shall align with local policy if you need planning permission

Depending on how you value your time, those 1500 quid plans might save you 5 to 10 days of learning, arguing and being browbeaten into accepting something not quite what you wanted (because your heart gets more set on what you design when you've finished designing it, whereas if a pro tells you at the ideas stage something won't fly because of X, it's less of a shock)

as well as architects, there is a lower level of qualification (architectural technician) that would be more than capable of producing plans for your project, and possibly at a lower cost. Ask around and get some quotes; the architect is a GP, the AT is a pharmacist, and your extension is a cough..

 

[mrrusty]

@robinbanks, yes I know all that, but this looks like a simple 2-wall Permitted development extension that many would do on a notice. (except it's scotland....!)

Interestingly, almost identical to one a builder mate was talking about recently. Council grant to build a downstairs bathroom of a similar size with a flat roof for a disabled person. He said he could build for £30K, but wasn't on this councils approved list of contractors. Grant was up to £50K, and the councils approved contractor wanted £80K and a £30K contribution from the client!

We are risking turning what are incredibly simple builds in to paperwork nightmares. The architects will always advocate full plans, but it isn't really necessary for simple standard constructions - we never had any plans for our own not dissimilar extension 7 years ago - all on a notice. I trusted the builder, the BC officer trusted the builder, who he had worked with before, and all just got done. I did the beam calcs using an online calculator, my C.Eng MICE son sprinkled holy water on them, the builder came up with the same answer anyway through experience, and in the end BC never even asked for the calcs because he'd seen it all before... I suspect this sort of build isn't going to happen in the future...