How far from the ring can an FCU be

[JohnW2]

You need an EICR (electrical installation condition report) ...

I wonder why you say that? There must be millions of domestic installations that have not had an EICR/PIR for very many years/decades (if ever) and, undesirable though it may be, that remains an ongoing possibility with owner-occupied property in England.

 

[robinbanks]

I think Eric said "need" in the same sense Murdochat said "mandatory"

 

[JohnW2]

I think Eric said "need" in the same sense Murdochat said "mandatory"

Yes, maybe - but I think it's actually 'worse' (more potentially misleading) in the case of eric's statement.

In the case of Murdo, I thought it appropriate to point out (for the benefit of other readers) that, strictly speaking, having RCDs is actually not literally "mandatory"- but I am sure that the vast number of people would regard it as 'fairly unacceptable' today to have an electrical installation with no RCD protection (and I presuming that such installations are gradually disappearing) - such that many people (like flameport) would describe it as 'effectively mandatory'.

However, in contrast, as I've just written, there must be millions of installations that have not had an EICR for a very long time, if ever, and not many people are losing sleep over that. I therefore think that eric's statement is a lot more potentially misleading (to 'those who don'y know') than was Murdo''s!

 

[ericmark]

I agree that many people have not done an EICR, but I remember my parent's house, and the problem due to all the bits my dad had added when an electrician tried to add a new consumer unit the RCD was tripping, back then, there was no requirement to have RCD protection, pre-2008. So he replaced the RCD with an isolator. If the same happened today, not sure if an electrician could replace a RCD with an isolator, and issue a compliance certificate, so need to know any problems before starting.

strictly speaking, having RCDs is actually not literally "mandatory"

I agree with that, however to replace a fuse box with a consumer unit, you need either a compliance or completion certificate, clearly it would not comply, the question therefore is would a LABC issue a completion certificate? I agree with what he said.

We have a couple of portable RCDs for the risky jobs (lawn mower, power tools) but a whole house RCD has disadvantages (FiL had one) so RCDs can wait for the new CU.

There are other ways around the safety issue, and the last thing anyone wants is to be landed with RCD tripping problems. Or any other unexpected problems like finding you have spurs from spurs etc.

 

[JohnW2]

I agree with that, however to replace a fuse box with a consumer unit, you need either a compliance or completion certificate, clearly it would not comply, the question therefore is would a LABC issue a completion certificate? I agree with what he said.

Sure, but I can't believe that anyone in their right mind would today even dream of replacing a fuse box with a CU which contained no RCDs (RCCBs or RCBOs). It would be notifiable work and, as you say, there is surely no way that one can (or should!) be able to get a compliance or completion certificate for something so obviously non-compliant with BS7671 - so there presumably would be no way of (legally, since notification is a legal requirement) replacing the fuse box without providing RCD protection?

The (my implied) point was that so long as the current fuse box is not replaced, no law is being broken by the absence of RCD protection, and I would say that that would remain the case no matter how much non-notifiable work was done on the installation?.

 

[ebee]

Sure, but I can't believe that anyone in their right mind would today even dream of replacing a fuse box with a CU which contained no RCDs (RCCBs or RCBOs). It would be notifiable work and, as you say, there is surely no way that one can (or should!) be able to get a compliance or completion certificate for something so obviously non-compliant with BS7671 - so there presumably would be no way of (legally, since notification is a legal requirement) replacing the fuse box without providing RCD protection?

The (my implied) point was that so long as the current fuse box is not replaced, no law is being broken by the absence of RCD protection, and I would say that that would remain the case no matter how much non-notifiable work was done on the installation?.

The use of the word "Mandatory" could often be taken, by many people, to mean a legal requirement.
The wiring Regs are not a statutory document and therefore do not have the force of law *
RCDs are pretty much mandatory to comply with the wiring regs.

* = a small portion relating to the laws of renting does state that inspections must be carried out periodically and compared to one particular edition of of the wiring regs.
If required by contract between parties then the wiring regs might apply.

If there is an electrical disaster and subsequent injuries to persons, livestock or property the you mighthave to explain to a bloke in a wig, whilst you are gripping the bar, why you did not comply with the wiring regs or ask to explain how your actions provide similar alternative protection (such as the wiring regs of another civilised country) or alternative suitable means.
The HSE state that compliance with the wiring regs "Is likely to comply with relevant law".

Therefore not mandatory in law but an extremely good idea to comply and perhaps foolhardy not to!

 

[ericmark]

Yes, to say it was not a consumer unit your honour, as it is three-phase, and you can't get three-phase consumer units, so it is not required that I notify fitting it, would not likely work, all it would do is generate case law. Although BS7671 is not law, it can be used in a court of law, and most of what BS7671 says is so it complies with CENELEC Harmonization Document. And we do from time to time have workers in the home, the district nurse and ambulance crew have visited my home, so it was at that point a place of work, so the HSE requirements also come into play. As many of the laws on electrics are not found in BS7671, like items needing to be supplied with 13 amp plugs.

But I fitted a pair of RCD's to protect my 14-year-old son in the main, after my father-in-law had pointed out I would never forgive myself if he were injured in his new hobby of being a radio ham, so fitted them in the 90s, my FiL never fitted them to his own house, but we will put our selves at risk, but will not put others at risk.

And it also depends on what it supplies, I note my central heating boiler is the only item in this house not RCD protected, it was before I had batteries fitted, and the central heating is now supplied from the inverter, with an UPS supply, and no RCD was fitted by the installers, still got a compliance certificate, but I warn the central heating guy every time it is serviced.

 

[JohnW2]

The use of the word "Mandatory" could often be taken, by many people, to mean a legal requirement. ... The wiring Regs are not a statutory document and therefore do not have the force of law *...

As I hope you realise, that is the (and the only) reason why I responded to Murdo's use of the word 'mandatory'.

As you go on to say, there is, in England, a legal requirement for compliance with BS7671:2018 for private rented properties, with a legal requirement that defects with EICR codes of C1 or C2 be remedied. However, at least in theory, even that does not inevitably mean that an installation without 'required' RCD protection would 'fail' the EICR (hence requiring 'remedial action') - since the one (and only) instance of BS7671 giving any guidance on EICR coding is where it says that the absence of required RCD protection should be given "at least a C3".

Having said that, we've been told nothing about rental and the OP seemed to imply that we're talking about owner-occupied premises.

RCDs are pretty much mandatory to comply with the wiring regs. ......... Therefore not mandatory in law but an extremely good idea to comply and perhaps foolhardy not to!

I don't think any of us would argue with that - but that does not alter the fact that RCDs are not, strictly speaking, 'mandatory'.

If required by contract between parties then the wiring regs might apply.

True, but if it's an owner-occupied house, I don't think that there will be any contracts - and, even if there were, it would be a 'civil matter'.

If there is an electrical disaster and subsequent injuries to persons, livestock or property the you mighthave to explain to a bloke in a wig, whilst you are gripping the bar, why you did not comply with the wiring regs or ask to explain how your actions provide similar alternative protection (such as the wiring regs of another civilised country) or alternative suitable means.

That is all true - but, being pedantic again (through a desire to avoid anyone being 'misled') again, does not mean that RCDs are "mandatory".
Having said that, I have to wonder how often instances of "an electrical disaster and subsequent injuries to persons, livestock or property" which were arguably due to non-compliance with BS7671 have got anywhere near a court!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

.... And we do from time to time have workers in the home, the district nurse and ambulance crew have visited my home, so it was at that point a place of work, so the HSE requirements also come into play.

You often write things like that, but can it possibly be true?

"Workers" (be they healthcare of emergency service workers or anything else) can find themselves working literally anywhere - in any building or anywhere outside of buildings - and I can't believe that the intent was that regs/laws relating to 'workplaces' should apply to people 'working' anywhere (which would make nonsense for having explicit 'workplace' regs/laws, wouldn't it?).

 

[ericmark]

Many years ago I worked for the county council, and part of my job was looking after portable traffic lights, which would sometimes fail in the middle of the night, and I would get called out to repair them, sometimes on roads with one car every couple of hours, so no one to help should anything go wrong, and often rather cold, so just lying there would be a problem without any injury, But it seems that was OK, as on a public road. But if I needed to visit the depot, then I had to call out a second man. Really did not make sense.

The Heathrow power outage, due to a fire report, details how long it took before the fire department were allowed to fight the fire, as items had to be isolated first, so yes we do have places even emergency services can't assess at will. And clearly with a fire, all ideas of the electrical system being safe go out of the window, but if I invite someone onto my property I am responsible for their safety, be it postman and my dog, or any other danger.

I know my deeds list what business can be run from my home, basically doctors and solicitors and dentists, no other business is permitted. So officially I could not work from home, I know my daughter has worked from here, and should something had gone wrong, I shudder to think what courts would say. Her firm knew she was working from home, but not my home. Her desk surrounded by electrical equipment, most not PAT tested. But we seem to just think, first catch the monkey. If she was injured would the hospital inform HSE as required for a work place accident?

 

[ebee]

You often write things like that, but can it possibly be true?

Yes I think it might well be the case - to a non-legal person such as myself I would assume that for any trade/profession entering a home is counted as a "workplace" for the duration of that visit at least so maybe, someone more knowlegeable may inform us about the relevan wording and definitions perhaps.

Contracts - well probably not in this case I suspect but there might be, its not impossible in this or similar cases perhaps.

I have some assurance from someone who has been an "Expert Witness" in court a few times that pretty much the first thing they do in such cases is actually refer it to comparison to BS7671 in so far as the expert witness is concerned , initially

Everything else I reckon I agree with what you say..

 

[JohnW2]

Yes I think it might well be the case - to a non-legal person such as myself I would assume that for any trade/profession entering a home is counted as a "workplace" for the duration of that visit at least ....

Perhaps but, as I asked, would it make sense for there to be specific laws/rules/regulations related to such a 'workplace' - given that, as I said, 'the place where people work' could literally be anywhere - not just 'in a home' or 'in a building', but also in the street, in the middle of a field or even the middle of a lake ?? In other words, even if legislation/whatever said that it specifically applied "in the workplace", that would actually mean "anywhere"!

so maybe, someone more knowlegeable may inform us about the relevan wording and definitions perhaps.

Indeed. Neither of us know, and (as we do know) it's not necessarily the case that law on the matter makes any sense! Even the lawyer in my family is unlikely to know about this sort of thing, but I'll ask her if I get an opportunity (and remember!).

I have some assurance from someone who has been an "Expert Witness" in court a few times that pretty much the first thing they do in such cases is actually refer it to comparison to BS7671 in so far as the expert witness is concerned , initially

I suppose that's what one would expect, but if any such case did get to court one imagines that 'the other side' would probably also produce expert witnesses to present an argument as to why non-compliance with BS7671 (if that's what was present) was not a problem in the case concerned.

Everything else I reckon I agree with what you say..

Glad to hear that

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

The Heathrow power outage, due to a fire report, details how long it took before the fire department were allowed to fight the fire, as items had to be isolated first, so yes we do have places even emergency services can't assess at will.

Is that not due to 'rules' of their own (rather than any legislation)? As you go on to say, fire-fighters often put themselves into extremely hazardous situations, don't they?

.... I know my daughter has worked from here, and should something had gone wrong, I shudder to think what courts would say. Her firm knew she was working from home, but not my home. Her desk surrounded by electrical equipment, most not PAT tested. But we seem to just think, first catch the monkey. If she was injured would the hospital inform HSE as required for a work place accident?

As I've been implying, this could get very silly. Particularly in these days of laptops and smartphones, people often 'work' on trains and buses, park benches, hotel foyers, coffee shops and goodness knows where else - and (in my opinion) nothing but silliness and confusion would be achieved by the law regarding all such places as "workplaces"

 

[ericmark]

I think you are correct, the problem was goods or people in and out of the premises, there was often a time limit, this house 25 years, and to change premises use does need local authority permission, often a change in the rates paid, as to charging rates to a park bench as used as a work place, likely the same as building regulations and caravans/mobile homes, they are not a building, so the regulations don't apply, so many landlords are using the loophole, so they don't need to comply with most of the landlord laws.

Is this a house

I would say since today it can't be used as a house no, wonder what the rates say it is?

 

[morqthana]

The (my implied) point was that so long as the current fuse box is not replaced, no law is being broken by the absence of RCD protection, and I would say that that would remain the case no matter how much non-notifiable work was done on the installation?.

The law which makes compliance with the Wiring Regulations effectively mandatory applies to non-notifiable work as well.