Well done wind

[Ivor Windybottom]

I have absolutely no agenda for or against wind power. If they're cost effective then the more the better. But it appears that we can't judge that based on govt data.

The state of the gas power stations is utterly irrelevant, that is my point! They'll be fixed, replaced, botched or whatever.

My point is that whatever it costs, it's all utterly irrelevant to wind power, as we need them anyway, whether or not we have wind turbines.

The govt have compared the costs of wind power against the cost of gas power, and have included the cost of rebuilding the gas power stations as a factor in the cost of gas. This is a false comparison, they're cooking the books to make gas look more expensive so they can make a false economic case for wind power.

Basically they've stuck a big fat irrelevant number into the cost of gas power generation. So of course it looks more expensive than wind.

Are people really so tribal about this stuff that they can't think about actual facts and logic?!

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Don't be silly. If you compare the RUNNING cost only, wind wins.

Yes, obviously. But then you've made a false comparison, for the reasons I've already stated several times and couldn't possibly make any simpler to understand.

 

[noseall]

If you build a wind farm then you also need to build a gas power station for when the wind doesn't blow.

This was, still is and always will be - utter bollix.

 

[MNW67]

I have absolutely no agenda for or against wind power. If they're cost effective then the more the better. But it appears that we can't judge that based on govt data.

The state of the gas power stations is utterly irrelevant, that is my point! They'll be fixed, replaced, botched or whatever.

My point is that whatever it costs, it's all utterly irrelevant to wind power, as we need them anyway, whether or not we have wind turbines.

The govt have compared the costs of wind power against the cost of gas power, and have included the cost of rebuilding the gas power stations as a factor in the cost of gas. This is a false comparison, they're cooking the books to make gas look more expensive so they can make a false economic case for wind power.

Basically they've stuck a big fat irrelevant number into the cost of gas power generation. So of course it looks more expensive than wind.

Are people really so tribal about this stuff that they can't think about actual facts and logic?!

There seem to be different methods of comparing the price such as System LCOE which take these factors into account.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

This was, still is and always will be - utter bollix.

Care to expand on your almighty wisdom so that other lesser mortals can share in your genius?

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Are people really so tribal about this stuff that they can't think about actual facts and logic?!

I think I may have discovered the answer to my question...

 

[JohnD]

Yes, obviously. But then you've made a false comparison, for the reasons I've already stated several times and couldn't possibly make any simpler to understand.

You can fairly compare the running costs of both, or you can fairly compare the build and running costs of both.

You wanted to compare the running costs of one with the running and build costs of the other.

"Silly" was a very restrained description of you.

"Tribal" would also be correct.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Oh alright, I'll have one last try. Please pay attention...

If you build a wind turbine you need a gas power station as backup
If you build a gas power station you don't need anything else as backup

Does this help in any way? Try re-reading my previous posts, I've broken down the argument further. I don't think I can express it any more clearly than I already have.

Or alternatively just keep banging the lefty drum and assume that anyone expressing any doubts is one of those enemies who we throw mud at.

I'm assuming the insults are a sign that you're admitting you've lost the argument?

 

[JohnD]

Oh alright, I'll have one last try. Please pay attention...

If you build a wind turbine you need a gas power station as backup
If you build a gas power station you don't need anything else as backup

If you choose to build gas and no wind, you are forever hostage to gas suppliers, and will always have to buy large amounts of gas at whatever price they can get.

If you build wind or other renewables, you might cut your gas bill in half.

Which is a lot.

I notice you avoid mentioning your silly suggestion

You wanted to compare the running costs of one with the running and build costs of the other.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

If you build wind and no gas then you'll pay inflated prices to import a heck of a lot of the time and have no national security.

So we don't do it, which is why we need gas power stations.

There's a hole in my bucket, etc. (means this discussion's going in circles for anyone too young to get the reference)

 

[MNW67]

Oh alright, I'll have one last try. Please pay attention...

If you build a wind turbine you need a gas power station as backup
If you build a gas power station you don't need anything else as backup

Does this help in any way? Try re-reading my previous posts, I've broken down the argument further. I don't think I can express it any more clearly than I already have.

Or alternatively just keep banging the lefty drum and assume that anyone expressing any doubts is one of those enemies who we throw mud at.

I'm assuming the insults are a sign that you're admitting you've lost the argument?

We already had loads of gas fired power stations. Can we still use those for backup generation. Or are there still not enough.

 

[JohnD]

If you build wind and no gas then you'll pay inflated prices to import a heck of a lot of the time and have no national security.

We import nuke electricity from France quite often, at low prices, because they make far more than they can use.

Sometimes we have so much wind power that we can export it, if the price is right.

Luckily we are in a neighbourhood of developed nations that have co-operative trading arrangements. Pity we threw away our membership.

 

[JohnD]

When the Iberian interconnects are built, there will be even more cheap renewable power circulating round Europe.

Lots of windmills means if the wind is not blowing here, it is probably blowing somewhere else. You just need enough wires to move it.

 

[noseall]

If you build a wind turbine you need a gas power station as backup

Nonsense. Adding more wind turbines just increases the amount going into the grid.

 

[Highway Man]

We import nuke electricity from France quite often, at low prices, because they make far more than they can use.

Sometimes we have so much wind power that we can export it, if the price is right.

Luckily we are in a neighbourhood of developed nations that have co-operative trading arrangements. Pity we threw away our membership.

We don't see the advantage of that, our prices are still hideously high wherever it comes from.