Ginger men who now identifies as a woman.

[JohnD]

JohnD again reinforcing his refusal to accept that intersex babies are born

Poor Billy can't stop lying.

 

[King Billy]

Poor Billy can't stop lying.

Do you accept that intersex babies are born and intersex people exist?

Prove that I'm lying.

 

[JohnD]

Men who pretend to be women are not intersex babies.

 

[King Billy]

Men who pretend to be women are not intersex babies.

You can't prove that I'm lying because you refuse to accept that intersex babies are born and intersex people exist.

Do you accept that intersex babies are born and intersex people exist?

Prove that I'm lying.

 

[King Billy]

While JohnD is formulating his response to my last post, perhaps I can help him to recognise that intersex babies are born and that they exist.
I especially would like to draw his attention to the numbers estimated to be intersex, and the cruel, harmful, degrading experience that they endure.

The UK government do not know how many intersex babies are born, nor how many intersex people exist.

The British government has said it is unaware how many intersex children — those born with bodies that do not conform to standard notions of male or female

The Government Has Admitted It Doesn't Know How Many Intersex Children Are Being Operated On

"Young people must be afforded the basic human right to decide autonomously on how they would like their body to feel and function."

www.buzzfeed.com

The UN has estimated that it's about 1.7% of the population.

The UN estimates 1.7% of the population have some form of intersex variation, which can manifest in hormones, chromosomes, genitals, or reproductive organs not all conforming to male or female norms.

The Government Has Admitted It Doesn't Know How Many Intersex Children Are Being Operated On

"Young people must be afforded the basic human right to decide autonomously on how they would like their body to feel and function."

www.buzzfeed.com

So an estimate of the number of people in UK who are intersex is over 1,000,000 people
That's more than 1,000,000 people that anti-trans activists want to simply disappear. They're an embarrassment to their beliefs. They prove their beliefs to be fundamentally erroneous. So they refuse to accept that they exist.

In addition it is estimated that nearly 3,000 involuntary (i.e. without the consent of the patient), and unnecessary Intersex Genital Mutilations (IGM) are performed each year. But the government, the NHS nor the Dept for Health know how many IGM surgeries are performed each year.

The British government has said it is unaware how many intersex children — those born with bodies that do not conform to standard notions of male or female — are being subjected to surgeries on the NHS, BuzzFeed News can reveal.
These include operations for which there is no medical need and where no consent has been obtained from the patient. It can lead to young patients effectively being assigned a sex that they may not identify with.

The Government Has Admitted It Doesn't Know How Many Intersex Children Are Being Operated On

"Young people must be afforded the basic human right to decide autonomously on how they would like their body to feel and function."

www.buzzfeed.com

Of course, this is only NHS England we are referring to, so the number for UK as a whole will be significantly more.
In comparison, only 700 to 900 surgeries are performed each year for cleft palate or cleft lip. So the number of involuntary, unnecessary IGM surgeries are performed each year, that's 3 - 5 times more than the cleft palate/lip surgeries, but the government do not know how many.
We also need to consider how many, in addition, are performed with consent or considered necessary, which are not included in the 3,000 figure.

This is despite medical advice given to the government, over 20 years ago, that such IGM surgeries are harmful and inappropriate.

Specialists at the Intersex Clinic at University College London began to publish evidence in 2001 that indicated the harm that can arise as a result of inappropriate interventions, and advised minimising the use of childhood surgical procedures.
Data presented in recent years suggests that little has changed in practice. Creighton and others in the UK have found that clitoral surgeries on under-14s have increased since 2006, and "recent publications in the medical literature tend to focus on surgical techniques with no reports on patient experiences"

Intersex rights in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yet the practice of IGM still continues in UK.

All typical forms of IGM practices are still widespread in the United Kingdom today,facilitated and paid for by the State party via the National Health Service (NHS), with statistics indicating about 2,900 involuntary, non-urgent interventions practiced annually.

The Committee on the Rights of the Child (CRC) consider IGM to be harmful, The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD consider IGM as a violation of the integrity, and The Committee against Torture (CAT) consider it as cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

The United Kingdom has been reviewed by CRC (2016), CRPD (2017) and CAT (2019) with all Committees recognising IGM in the UK as constituting a harmful practice, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and a violation of integrity.

https://ccprcentre.org/files/documents/INT_CCPR_ICS_GBR_41026_E.pdf#:~:text=Executive%20Summary.%20All%20typical%20forms%20of%20IGM,inhuman%20or%20degrading%20treatment%20(CAT/C/GBR/CO/6%2C%20paras%2064%2D65).

And some want them to disappear to avoid them disproving their outdated, old-fashioned, religiously-inspired prejudicial beliefs.

 

[Highway Man]

I am confused as to what you are getting so excited over, the confirmation that there is a rareity of intersex babies or that a man identifying as a woman should be allowed to use womens changing rooms and toilets? You are confusing the two issues and trying to roll them into one. Forget the rareity of intersex babies and tell us why you think that women should accept weird men wearing dresses be allowed into their toilets?

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Agreed, both are arguing different arguments.

I think we all agree that intersex babies exist. But they are a tiny proportion of the population.

A much bigger number are entirely male - stubble and meat and two veg - but like to pretend that they're female.

These are completely different subjects. The second lot have hijacked what was a very worthy cause by the first lot.

Genuinely intersex people probably don't appreciate the attention that this whole issue is getting from well-meaning idiots. They used to quietly go about their private lives, going in whatever door they thought was most appropriate. Now they're being associated with drag queens, while people are angrily inspecting the facial features of anyone else to check whether they fit in or not.

 

[King Billy]

the confirmation that there is a rareity of intersex babies . Forget the rareity of intersex babies

I'm happy to engage with you, as long as we're having a sensible debate. If I think you're trolling, I'll leave you to it.

The rarity of intersex babies is not so rare,
According to UN estimates there are well over 1,000,000 intersex people in the UK.
According to various statistics nearly 30,000 unnecessary and involuntary intersex genital mutilations (IGM) occur in England alone.
With a birth of 563,000 in England and 27,500 in wales that would suggest a further 5% (150) of 3,000 IGM in Wales. A further 300 in Scotland, and about 150 in NI.
That means that about 3,600 unnecessary, involuntary IGMs are carried in the UK annually.
This is in contravention of numerous national and international organisations saying that it is cruel, degrading, harmful and violates the integrity of the individual.
The UK outlaws FGM, but some IGM procedures borders on FGM.
Doctors are happy to continue with IGM, despite the dangers of lifelong physical and psychological problems, despite FGM being illegal, and the concern of the many organisations.

In addition there is no mechanism for people wo have suffered IGM to seek redress, nor any legal mechanism for those performing IGM to be prosecuted.
The NHS has no intention of stopping performing IGM until the law is changed.

Now obviously intersex and trans people are interlinked through the incorrect assignment of the sex. I 've already covered in-depth how the social construct of binary sex occurred. Other countries, and more each year, are conforming to the concept of intersex or undefined sex.

Now gender is completely different but sometimes non-binary sex conditions will obviously give rise to gender re-assessment.

Once the UK and its people recognise intersex as a legitimate and normal occurrence, that doesn't need IGM, then the acceptance of transgender follows.


Also the issue of intersex and gender identity should not be conflated with LGB issues even though the umbrella organisation LGBTQ+ embraces intersex and transgender issues.

or that a man identifying as a woman should be allowed to use womens changing rooms and toilets? Ytell us why you think that women should accept weird men wearing dresses be allowed into their toilets?

You are presenting a strawman argument.
I have never argued that weird men wearing dresses should be allowed into female spaces.
The issue of intersex and gender identity should not be conflated with perverted voyeurs or any other sort of potential crimnal behaviour.
The argument about men accessing female spaces is merely an anti trans activist argument designed to resist the acceptance that intersex people exist, and therefore transgenders also exist.

The issue of transwomen accessing female only spaces is a different argument.
As you appear reluctant to accept that intersex babies and people exist in their many hundreds of thousands, and that gender identity is not an attempt to commit a criminal offence, I think I'd be wrestling with pigs or playing chess with pigeons.

When you can accept that intersex babies and people exist in their hundreds of thousands, and that transgender is not an excuse nor a camouflage for criminal behaviour, let me know.

 

[King Billy]

Agreed, both are arguing different arguments.

I think we all agree that intersex babies exist. But they are a tiny proportion of the population.

According to UN there are about 1.7% of the population, that's over 1,000,000 in the UK.
It might be a small percentage, but that's over 1,000,000 people we're talking about, that anti-trans activists wished they didn't exist.

A much bigger number are entirely male - stubble and meat and two veg - but like to pretend that they're female.

They're criminals and should not be conflated with transgender people.

These are completely different subjects. The second lot have hijacked what was a very worthy cause by the first lot.

Only because many, including you refuse to recognise the existence of over 1,000,000 intersex people, and transgenders in particular, conflating them with criminals.

Genuinely intersex people probably don't appreciate the attention that this whole issue is getting from well-meaning idiots.

You mean that people who address and object to the bigotry and discrimination experienced by minority groups are idiots?

They used to quietly go about their private lives, going in whatever door they thought was most appropriate.

Now the anti-trans activists have made it illegal for them to go quietly through the door that suits them best, forcing them to use the other spaces, in order to comply with the Supreme Court judgement.
Was that the fault of the anti-trans activists, or the fault of those that object to and address the bigotry and discrimination aimed at those transgender people?

Now they're being associated with drag queens,

Only by you.

while people are angrily inspecting the facial features of anyone else to check whether they fit in or not.

Don't forget to inspect the size of their hands.

She looked like a woman, but if you knew more you could see the clues, e.g. big hands.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

I'm happy to engage with you, as long as we're having a sensible debate. If I think you're trolling, I'll leave you to it.

The rarity of intersex babies is not so rare,
According to UN estimates there are well over 1,000,000 intersex people in the UK.
According to various statistics nearly 30,000 unnecessary and involuntary intersex genital mutilations (IGM) occur in England alone.
With a birth of 563,000 in England and 27,500 in wales that would suggest a further 5% (150) of 3,000 IGM in Wales. A further 300 in Scotland, and about 150 in NI.
That means that about 3,600 unnecessary, involuntary IGMs are carried in the UK annually.
This is in contravention of numerous national and international organisations saying that it is cruel, degrading, harmful and violates the integrity of the individual.
The UK outlaws FGM, but some IGM procedures borders on FGM.
Doctors are happy to continue with IGM, despite the dangers of lifelong physical and psychological problems, despite FGM being illegal, and the concern of the many organisations.

In addition there is no mechanism for people wo have suffered IGM to seek redress, nor any legal mechanism for those performing IGM to be prosecuted.
The NHS has no intention of stopping performing IGM until the law is changed.

Now obviously intersex and trans people are interlinked through the incorrect assignment of the sex. I 've already covered in-depth how the social construct of binary sex occurred. Other countries, and more each year, are conforming to the concept of intersex or undefined sex.

Now gender is completely different but sometimes non-binary sex conditions will obviously give rise to gender re-assessment.

Once the UK and its people recognise intersex as a legitimate and normal occurrence, that doesn't need IGM, then the acceptance of transgender follows.


Also the issue of intersex and gender identity should not be conflated with LGB issues even though the umbrella organisation LGBTQ+ embraces intersex and transgender issues.




You are presenting a strawman argument.
I have never argued that weird men wearing dresses should be allowed into female spaces.
The issue of intersex and gender identity should not be conflated with perverted voyeurs or any other sort of potential crimnal behaviour.
The argument about men accessing female spaces is merely an anti trans activist argument designed to resist the acceptance that intersex people exist, and therefore transgenders also exist.

The issue of transwomen accessing female only spaces is a different argument.
As you appear reluctant to accept that intersex babies and people exist in their many hundreds of thousands, and that gender identity is not an attempt to commit a criminal offence, I think I'd be wrestling with pigs or playing chess with pigeons.

When you can accept that intersex babies and people exist in their hundreds of thousands, and that transgender is not an excuse nor a camouflage for criminal behaviour, let me know.

You're just spewing words.

There's no point, nobody is reading your posts that are big blocks of text.

If you can't get your point down to a couple of sentences then it probably doesn't make sense anyway.

 

[King Billy]

You're just spewing words.

There's no point, nobody is reading your posts that are big blocks of text.

If you can't get your point down to a couple of sentences then it probably doesn't make sense anyway.

My apologies, but I don't intend to curtail my posts because you suffer from an attention deficit syndrome.

If people can't cope with complex issues that require numerous lines of text to communicate, maybe social media isn't for them.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

I'll try to help you get to something resembling a point...

Cock in a frock - ladies or mens?

 

[King Billy]

I'll try to help you get to something resembling a point...

Cock in a frock - ladies or mens?

If you want to participate in an intelligent debate about complex issues, you need to get your attention deficiency syndrome sorted, to be able to absorb more than a few words or a couple of lines of text.

How did you ever manage at school, where you were expected to read books. I mean proper books, with multiple lines of text on multiple pages, not the typical pop-up picture book designed to capture the attention of a child.

If you can't read a book, or more than a couple of lines of text, does that mean you're limited to only reading the headlines in the Daily Mail?

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

No answer, what a surprise. So pee in the corridor then?

 

[aveatry]

Pure ad hominem attacks, and not an iota of anything else.
Typical of the level of their 'debating' skills.

I see you do not practice what you preach - these two posts of yours jut 3 hours apart -- you a a joke

you need to get your attention deficiency syndrome sorted, to be able to absorb more than a few words or a couple of lines of text.

How did you ever manage at school, where you were expected to read books. I mean proper books, with multiple lines of text on multiple pages, not the typical pop-up picture book designed to capture the attention of a child.