Thats how you do it, I've put one of those 50mm desk tidy things in since.
Floating sockets..
- Thread starter robinbanks
- Start date
I think we're definitely going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this
Just to make sure I'm not doing you an injustice ... are you saying that a trailing socket lying on the floor, wired with flex that went through a hole in a shelf to a plug that was plugged into a wall mounted socket would be 'acceptable', whereas it would not be acceptable if, rather than having a plug on it's end, the flex was 'hard-wired' into a wall-mounted FCU, switch, outlet plate, connector block/Wagos (behind blank plate) etc. etc. ... and that, given that you have cited 134.1.1, you would actually give a C3 to the latter?
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Yes C3...I think we're definitely going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this
Just to make sure I'm not doing you an injustice ... are you saying that a trailing socket lying on the floor, wired with flex that went through a hole in a shelf to a plug that was plugged into a wall mounted socket would be 'acceptable', whereas it would not be acceptable if, rather than having a plug on it's end, the flex was 'hard-wired' into a wall-mounted FCU, switch, outlet plate, connector block/Wagos (behind blank plate) etc. etc. ... and that, given that you have cited 134.1.1, you would actually give a C3 to the latter?
Whats 132.12 again?
No wrong one cant remember im out at the moment...
But still C3 yeah agree to disagree
132.12 is about 'accessibility of electrical equipment' - presumably no problem with either what you or I were describing. 134.1.1, which you previously mentioned, is about 'good workmanship', and hence is a 'catch-all' that can mean anything to anyone
I'm rather surprised. It might sound like a silly, maybe even facetious, hypothetical question to ask, but your answer might possibly help me to understand your thinking, so ....But still C3 yeah agree to disagree
... if you still regard the 'latter situation' described in my last post as not being acceptable, would that remain the case if I super-glued the plug to the socket?
And we are back to 134.1.1
Im never going to say an un-fixed socket is acceptable...it needs improving
...final answer.
Its obviously been discussed before....similar to our discussion actually....difference this socket has no gland but, im sticking to it. 
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Is it within the regs to fit sockets without securing them to a wall/cupboard? | Electricians Forums
, Is it within the regs to fit sockets without securing them to a wall/cupboard?, Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations on Electricians Forums
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May I just comment on siting reg 1341.1.1?
In many ways perhaps the most powerfull reg in the book or one of them and often overlooked in some respects.
However this often get thought of by the statement "Not as the manufacturer intended!"
In other words if we use something as it was intended then always OK but if we use it not as intended is never OK!
I strongly disagree with that interpretation.
Yes we are encouraged to trust those who made it, indeed until recently their design was "paramount" whereas nowadays that has been downgraded very slightly to "must be taken into account".
I do not disgree with putting a very large of amount of trust in the manufacturers as a gen rule of thumb no problem usually , it is their product, they made it, tested it, probably have extensive knowledge of what it can/can not do and can often be relied upon.
But always remember, new inventions, new ideas, are not forbidden and might sometimes actually be encouraged providing that due diligence and sound engineering judgement is always used.
New inventions, new ideas can include sometimes using an existing product in ways the makers might not have envisaged them.
Caution is always advised if you deviate from the original intention because you might not have some vital knowledge but it is never totally forbidden.
It is never always wrong in every case, it might or might not be a good idea.
That is how we progress (sometimes!).
To wander outside the design of the makers then you become the designer (of that idea) and you accept the responsibillity of so doing.
In many ways perhaps the most powerfull reg in the book or one of them and often overlooked in some respects.
However this often get thought of by the statement "Not as the manufacturer intended!"
In other words if we use something as it was intended then always OK but if we use it not as intended is never OK!
I strongly disagree with that interpretation.
Yes we are encouraged to trust those who made it, indeed until recently their design was "paramount" whereas nowadays that has been downgraded very slightly to "must be taken into account".
I do not disgree with putting a very large of amount of trust in the manufacturers as a gen rule of thumb no problem usually , it is their product, they made it, tested it, probably have extensive knowledge of what it can/can not do and can often be relied upon.
But always remember, new inventions, new ideas, are not forbidden and might sometimes actually be encouraged providing that due diligence and sound engineering judgement is always used.
New inventions, new ideas can include sometimes using an existing product in ways the makers might not have envisaged them.
Caution is always advised if you deviate from the original intention because you might not have some vital knowledge but it is never totally forbidden.
It is never always wrong in every case, it might or might not be a good idea.
That is how we progress (sometimes!).
To wander outside the design of the makers then you become the designer (of that idea) and you accept the responsibillity of so doing.
I haven't checked the link as I dislike the arrogant way the site is run and no longer have an account there ...Its obviously been discussed before....similar to our discussion actually....difference this socket has no gland but, im sticking to it.
Is it within the regs to fit sockets without securing them to a wall/cupboard? | Electricians Forums
, Is it within the regs to fit sockets without securing them to a wall/cupboard?, Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations on Electricians Forums
However I had forgotten but believe I read (and possibly posted in) that thread or one like it a while back, is that the one which finished immediately after someone quoted the reg something along the lines of
infrequently moved equipment may be connected using solid cable
I don't require multiple posts correcting my paraphrasing of the post or the reg but posting the reg here, or its recent version, may assist in decision making.
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Oh - in that case it looks as if I have doing some misunderstanding - since, given that you wrote ...
... I presumed that you were subsequently saying that this (per pic) would be OK so long as there was a proper 'training socket ("an extension lead type socket" on the other end of the flex ...
It now sounds as if that probably wasn't what you meant, so I would be grateful if you could clarify. Thanks.
I don't know about "most powerful" but it could be said that it is 'all-encompassing'. If one feels that 'good workmanship' includes compliance with all explicit regs in BS7671, then 134.1.1 requires one to comply with every other reg "and more", with that "more" being so vague and subjective that it could include almost anything to any particular person!
Quite, as you say, the authors of BS7671 seem to agree with you since they have appreciably 'weakened' the reg (I would personally say more than "downgraded very slightly") in recent times. It's not that long ago that there was an explicit requirement to comply with MIs - strictly speaking even if (as sometimes did happen) those MIs were clearly incorrect - but today's requirement to 'take the MIs into account' allows for much discretion and judgement.
What worries me a little is that, as we have seen to some extent in this thread, some people might (by application of their personal judgement/discretion) give C3s (or maybe even C2s) to things that were not non-compliant with any explicit regs, and which some (maybe many) others would find acceptable, on the basis of their own personal opinion about 'good workmanship' (citing 134.1.1).
There's a fridge on the other end of that flex.
Fair enough, but when you wrote this 'yes' (below) to Sunray, were you not saying that a (purpose-made) 'trailing socket' (which is what I assumed he meant by "an extension lead type socket") on the end of the flex would also be OK? ...
John....what do you want from me? 
The floating socket in the OP's post is a C3 to me all day long.
A trailing extension lead socket attached to the fixed wiring is just wrong and I would want it changed and fixed.
A fixed socket with a an extension lead plugged in is of no concern to me.
134.1.1.
Thats my last post on the subject.
The floating socket in the OP's post is a C3 to me all day long.
A trailing extension lead socket attached to the fixed wiring is just wrong and I would want it changed and fixed.
A fixed socket with a an extension lead plugged in is of no concern to me.
134.1.1.
Thats my last post on the subject.
.... merely answers to my questions which would help me to understand your thinking. You may think that it's obvious', but it's not from where I am sitting!John....what do you want from me?
Maybe, and I accept that as a view you're entitled to have, but the recent exchanges have not related to the OP's situation - they have been attempts to ascertain your view of the situation in which the 'floating' (not fixed to wall) socket is a 'proper trailing socket' (rather than the OP situation of a standard socket on a back box which is meant to be 'fixed')..
OK. that seems to answer my questions. You seem to be saying that a proper trailing socket (potentially 'lying on the floor') wired with flex is OK (no code) if the other end of the flex has a plug which is plugged into a (fixed to wall) socket, but that if the flex is connected directly to some other (fixed to wall) accessory (FCU, switch, outlet plate etc.) then it should be given a C3.
If that's the case then, whilst I obviously have to respect your being entitled to have that opinion, I personally find it very hard to see any 'electrical sense' in that viewpoint.
Ironically, if it were an oven we were talking about, I imagine that at least some people would probably say that it was more desirable that the flex should be hard-wired into an FCU than that it should be fed via a BS1363 plug/socket
You do make some good points..... merely answers to my questions which would help me to understand your thinking. You may think that it's obvious', but it's not from where I am sitting!
Maybe, and I accept that as a view you're entitled to have, but the recent exchanges have not related to the OP's situation - they have been attempts to ascertain your view of the situation in which the 'floating' (not fixed to wall) socket is a 'proper trailing socket' (rather than the OP situation of a standard socket on a back box which is meant to be 'fixed')..
OK. that seems to answer my questions. You seem to be saying that a proper trailing socket (potentially 'lying on the floor') wired with flex is OK (no code) if the other end of the flex has a plug which is plugged into a (fixed to wall) socket, but that if the flex is connected directly to some other (fixed to wall) accessory (FCU, switch, outlet plate etc.) then it should be given a C3.
If that's the case then, whilst I obviously have to respect your being entitled to have that opinion, I personally find it very hard to see any 'electrical sense' in that viewpoint.
Ironically, if it were an oven we were talking about, I imagine that at least some people would probably say that it was more desirable that the flex should be hard-wired into an FCU than that it should be fed via a BS1363 plug/socket
But im sticking to my guns
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