Plug in solar

[denso13]

Where does it say that?

There are a few definitions, what is your preferred one?

Oh, so now we have "installation" do we.

What word would prefer I had used?

According to what they officially mean without modifications.

What does "qualified" mean?
What does "electrician" mean?

 

[ericmark]

In the main we look at BS 7671 for a definition, but there are also definitions in the building regulations 2010.
“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer's side of the electricity supply meter; (building regs)
or
Electrical installation (abbr: installation). An assembly of associated electrical equipment having co-ordinated characteristics to fulfil Specific purposes. (BS 7671:2008 sorry don't have current edition)

“dwelling” includes a dwelling-house and a flat;
“dwelling-house” does not include a flat or a building containing a flat;

So we have a legal definition of a dwelling, but normally the law will refer to where to find the definition like:-
“electrical installation” has the meaning given in regulation 2(1) of the Building Regulations 2010(2); found in "The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector and Social Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020"

So if G98 was a law, it would have a reference, but when I came to look at G98 I found it varies area to area, the requirement to complete may be required by law, but was are looking at a legal agreement signed to get a grid electrical supply, and that agreement is not issued by the government.

I went to down-load a sample G98, but then realised pointless, as it is not nationwide, hence why there are arguments about what is required.

So the answer seems to be the government definition of electrical installation, it makes it very clear, it needs to be "fixed" and since plug-in solar can be unplugged, it is not "fixed" so it is not part of the installation so it would seem it does not require G98.

However, with V2G EV the socket is registered, that would be with a G99 not G98 as an EV battery is too big, so may be the BS1363 socket to be used with plug-in solar needs registering, but I have not looked into that.

The big difference is G99 has to be completed before installation, and G98 is after, so any questions with G99 are sorted before the installation is started.

Personally I can't work out the reason to require a G98 with just an 800 watt limit, and it seems likely there will be a new updated system, we also have the problem getting payment for export, and the batteries not included, so it seems likely we will see some clarification on what is required from the government.

 

[denso13]

so it seems likely we will see some clarification on what is required from the government

It really is very clear already. If it isn't worthwhile for you then don't get one.

It's as simple as that.

 

[UKMICKY]

Ok . A question .

So yes I’m still going on about this one I know but I did start the thread so I’m allowed

Im still trying to work out what I want to do but rather than plug in solar I’m now thinking of having of one of them new anker solar bank 4s fitted by an electrician with battery in my garage with 10 to 15 KW of battery storage. Should be prett6 straight forward with very minimal etc wiring needed as the unit can basically sit right next to CU.

As we are now approaching winter I’m happy to wait a little to add solar at panels and in the beginning wlll just use it to import cheap overnight power ,

Fitting panels to the anker is pretty straight forward and is more or less plug and play.

When I was ready for panels do the rules on fixed installations prevent me from fitting my own panels . I’m aware I would have to submit a G98.

AI says yes I can fit them or replace them myself but I head says no the law wouldn’t allow.

Just to add I decided not to bother with exporting.

 

[morqthana]

In the main we look at BS 7671 for a definition, but there are also definitions in the building regulations 2010.
“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer's side of the electricity supply meter; (building regs)
or
Electrical installation (abbr: installation). An assembly of associated electrical equipment having co-ordinated characteristics to fulfil Specific purposes. (BS 7671:2008 sorry don't have current edition)

Neither includes a requirement for "own electricity supply and consumer unit".

“dwelling” includes a dwelling-house and a flat;
“dwelling-house” does not include a flat or a building containing a flat;

So we have a legal definition of a dwelling,

Unsurprisingly Denso has swerved the question, but given the above and this:

3.3 Household
A single dwelling unit with its own electricity supply and consumer unit. In buildings containing
multiple dwellings (e.g. blocks of flats, converted houses), each dwelling with its own consumer
unit is treated as a separate household.

how many households are there in the building you occupy?

 

[denso13]

how many households are there in the building you occupy?

One, according to the plug in solar definition.

 

[Munroast]

@UKMICKY just a thought on using batteries to store cheap electricity. you do realise you do not get back out what you put in! Each pass through the inverter loses about 8% and it will loose another 4% whilst inside the battery - so in total you will only get back out about 80% of what you put in
Therefor if you charge your batteries up during the night like i do at 7p per kwh, it is actually costing about 8.75p per kwh when the wastage is taken into account

and to be even more pedantic, each cycle reduces the life time of these batteries , lets say a 10kwh battery pack costing £2,500 lasts 7000 cycles, that works out at 36p per cycle. a 10kwh battery system is in reality only about 7.8kwh of usable power. so we can add another 4.6p per kwh

therefore cheap electricity bought and stored in a battery during the night at 7p, is really costing about 13p per kwh

it is still cheaper, a lot cheaper, it's half price leccy and we can't say that is not a good thing - but be very careful of the headline figures these solar companies bandy about

 

[denso13]

but when I came to look at G98 I found it varies area to area

How do you mean? Does it not cover Britain?

 

[ericmark]

how many households are there in the building you occupy?

Must be one, as no one lives in the flat, but even if there was someone in it "“dwelling” includes a dwelling-house and a flat;" it is a dwelling. Not dwellings. So no real wriggle room.

As to having multi inverters, not read G99 to see what it says, and already over the limit for G98.

Given up the idea anyway, simply not worthwhile, if tariffs change, then may need to look at it again.

As to loses with batteries, it is hard to work out in advance how much energy we will get, so we charge at 8.625p/kWh as if we run out, paying 32.277p/kWh so although maybe a loss if only being paid 12p/kWh, but I am not into changing the charging each day depending on weather forecast.

With another battery, I would be sure of not running out, but they do have a limited life, so can't see there being enough gains to be worth it.

How do you mean? Does it not cover Britain?

It seems although given the same name, the forms change depending on the DNO issuing them, so one can't as it stands read on issued in the South and assume it is the same as one issued in the North.

I have no intension of trying to download all the different versions. They will not apply to me anyway, since I already have solar, I would need to complete the G99.

 

[denso13]

It seems although given the same name, the forms change depending on the DNO issuing them,

There is only one, issued by the ENA.

 

[UKMICKY]

@UKMICKY just a thought on using batteries to store cheap electricity. you do realise you do not get back out what you put in! Each pass through the inverter loses about 8% and it will loose another 4% whilst inside the battery - so in total you will only get back out about 80% of what you put in
Therefor if you charge your batteries up during the night like i do at 7p per kwh, it is actually costing about 8.75p per kwh when the wastage is taken into account

and to be even more pedantic, each cycle reduces the life time of these batteries , lets say a 10kwh battery pack costing £2,500 lasts 7000 cycles, that works out at 36p per cycle. a 10kwh battery system is in reality only about 7.8kwh of usable power. so we can add another 4.6p per kwh

therefore cheap electricity bought and stored in a battery during the night at 7p, is really costing about 13p per kwh

it is still cheaper, a lot cheaper, it's half price leccy and we can't say that is not a good thing - but be very careful of the headline figures these solar companies bandy about

Yeah I’m not expecting things to work out perfectly but it will be much bette4 than things currently. Giving British Gas £1900 a year for my electricity is ****ing me off.

 

[morqthana]

One, according to the plug in solar definition.

Nope.

Under English law, a dwelling is defined as a self-contained 'substantial' unit of accommodation, such as a building, part of a building, caravan, houseboat or other mobile home

There are two dwellings in Eric's building. But as neither has its own electricity supply or consumer unit, neither is a 'household' as defined in that solar spec.

 

[morqthana]

Must be one, as no one lives in the flat,

Occupancy is irrelevant to a definition which tries to change a word from meaning people to meaning physical buildings.

but even if there was someone in it "“dwelling” includes a dwelling-house and a flat;" it is a dwelling. Not dwellings. So no real wriggle room.

So is only one space substantial and self-contained? What rules the other one out - is it insubstantial, or is it not self-contained?

 

[denso13]

But as neither has its own electricity supply or consumer unit

That's the important bit, the rest is irrelevant.

But as neither has its own electricity supply or consumer unit, neither is a 'household' as defined in that solar spec.

Of course one does, the flat has the supply and the consumer unit, the rest is fed by circuits from there.

Electrical supply is the main feed coming from outside to the meter. The flat has that, the house doesn't.

• “supply”, in relation to electricity, means supply through electric lines otherwise than to premises occupied by a licence holder for the purpose of carrying on the activities which he is authorised by his licence to carry on;

Electricity Act 1989

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[morqthana]

That's the important bit, the rest is irrelevant.

But then you immediately go on to say

Of course one does, the flat has the supply and the consumer unit, the rest is fed by circuits from there.

If a consumer unit is shared by two dwellings, then neither has its own.

Electrical supply is the main feed coming from outside to the meter. The flat has that, the house doesn't.

Then neither has its own.