Is it possible to fit an rcbo in this board?

scousespark said:

So in this thread a posts that safe isolation is only practiced in the classroom and in the real world the ”safety protocol” is to leave things live and be careful doesn’t warrant a comment, but a word set by predictive text on an iPad does. I do see the smiley and am not wound up by your post, but I am curious as to whether you would condone working live in this instance.

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As you almost acknowledge (by your reference to my smiley, not to mention my reference to 'Brexit', which must surely be close the biggest 'joke' of all time), it now appears that two people have 'had their jokes wasted' in this thread

Anyway, as for your question, and as you might expect, no, I would not 'condone working live in this instance'. Having said that, nor would I condone others taking the same sort of risks as I have been known to take in the course of my life (in fields totally divorced from anything electrical).

For what it's worth, I would add that the OP is correct in saying (in a somewhat more personalised manner!) that it would be wrong to believe that, in the real world' "nobody works live and safe isolation is used all the time" - and, as in so many walks of life, it is quite often those who are trained/qualified and experienced (rather than amateurs, who are often much more nervous/cautious) who 'cut corners' (even corners designed to preserve their health and lives) on the basis of 'experience'.

Kind Regards, John

I may have been a bit cocky about the safe isolation so i apologise, but the point i was trying to make and as john has pointed out, if you are reasonably skilled, one may not go to the extreme of safe isolation. In my consumer unit the only danger is the live exposed busbar in the middle but like i say i was not anywhere near it, i used insulated tools to swap the breaker temporary so there was little risk of shock or short circuits. I ended up just going for a regular 32a mcb replacement and got a plug in rcd for the socket. Yes i replaced the breaker with the main switch on because again there was little risk of injury, the clip on the bottom of the mcb plays no part for this consumer unit, so its just a case of hooking the breaker on the din rail and securing to the busbar(obviously ensuring the clamp in the bottom of the mcb terminal does not miss the bar). I used an insulated screwdriver so there was no risk of shock and yes the mcb was in the off position before i connected the load cable to prevent arcing.

Had the consumer unit been a different design where the clip at the bottom of the mcb plays a part which involved fiddling near the bus bar very closely to secure it then yes i would have definitely have switched off the board.

Tldr: yes i do work live on occasions but only if i think there will be little risk of injury. For instance if i was replacing a plastic light switch for another which only had 2 wires live and switch live then i would do it live, however if the new and old switches were metal, or if the loop had been done in the switches then yes i would definitely switch off the circuit. I would certainly not replace ceiling roses or socket circuits live, doing so is likely going to disturb power to others lights or sockets further down the loop anyway so i'm acheiving nothing by leaving the circuit on, and only risk unnecessary shocks arcing and potentially molten metal flying in my face so obviously in those cases the power would be switched off.
Hope this is clear.

All those that consider working live to be acceptable should go and read Regulation 14, and then explain in detail how their live working complies with it.

flameport said:

All those that consider working live to be acceptable should go and read Regulation 14, and then explain in detail how their live working complies with it.

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"Regulation 14" of what?

Kind Regards, John

ross94 said:

.. as john has pointed out, if you are reasonably skilled, one may not go to the extreme of safe isolation.

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I did not actually say that. I said that some people believe that their skill, knowledge and experience justifies 'working live' in some situations, but that I don't 'condone' such practices, any more than I condone people taking ('non electrical') risks like some of those I've taken in the course of my lifetime to date.

I suspect that the reality probably is that many, perhaps most, electricians have on some occasions 'worked live', if only in a very minor way, although most of them would probably not want to admit or discuss that 'in public'. Indeed, some aspects of 'live testing' necessarily come within the scope of 'working live'. As I said before, I also suspect that this is probably much less prevalent amongst non-electricians (who generally don't have the 'skill, knowledge and experience' to use as an excuse for doing it).

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

"Regulation 14" of what?

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EAWR.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/635/regulation/14/made

EFLImpudence said:

EAWR.

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Does that apply to DIYers?

As I've just written, ironically it is probably electricians who (justifying their practices to themselves on the basis of their 'skill, knowledge and experience') who are more likely to take ('uncondonable') risks, 'when no-one is looking over their shoulder'.

Kind Regards, John

flameport said:

All those that consider working live to be acceptable should go and read Regulation 14, and then explain in detail how their live working complies with it.

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I

JohnW2 said:

I did not actually say that. I said that some people believe that their skill, knowledge and experience justifies 'working live' in some situations, but that I don't 'condone' such practices, any more than I condone people taking ('non electrical') risks like some of those I've taken in the course of my lifetime to date.

I suspect that the reality probably is that many, perhaps most, electricians have on some occasions 'worked live', if only in a very minor way, although most of them would probably not want to admit or discuss that 'in public'. Indeed, some aspects of 'live testing' necessarily come within the scope of 'working live'. As I said before, I also suspect that this is probably much less prevalent amongst non-electricians (who generally don't have the 'skill, knowledge and experience' to use as an excuse for doing it).

Kind Regards, John

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Apologies i misinterpreted, for the record i am not for one second suggesting that anyone copies what i have done electrician or diyer (especially diyers). There are a lot of things one technially shouldn't do but do anyway, not just related to electrics, people drive cars (potential killing machines) and have a license, but really have no business being behind the wheel because they're ****e driver.

ross94 said:

Apologies i misinterpreted, for the record i am not for one second suggesting that anyone copies what i have done electrician or diyer (especially diyers).

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Exactly. Same here, and that's precisely what I meant when I said that I do not, and could not, 'condone' such practices - any more that I could 'condone' many of the things which I have done.

As for "(especially DIYers)", as I've been saying, I am far from convinced that they are the main 'culprits'! Aside of complete idiots, and those with insufficient knowledge to be going anywhere near anything electrical, non-professionals tend to be much more cautious, and without the complacency which sometimes results from the fact that they are 'very experienced'.

Kind Regards, John

DetlefSchmitz said:

Oh, well. Joke wasted!

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Sir, sir! I got it sir!

JohnW2 said:

Aside of complete idiots, and those with insufficient knowledge to be going anywhere near anything electrical, non-professionals tend to be much more cautious

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In my experience, most non-professionals fall into those two categories.

Many many people f*** with stuff without having a clue. Then when (as it often does) it works, they assume they have got it right.

securespark said:

In my experience, most non-professionals fall into those two categories. ... Many many people f*** with stuff without having a clue. Then when (as it often does) it works, they assume they have got it right.

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I think you've missed the context. I was talking about the personal safety of the individual whilst undertaking the work, not about their competence, nor even the 'safeness' of the work they do.

Essentially by definition, you will not find non-professionals thinking "I can get away with this ['potentially dangerous'] practice without coming to harm, because I am trained/qualified, knowledgeable and very experienced, and hence 'know what I am doing' ".

Kind Regards, John

As soon as you change that mcb you are responsible for that circuit so must have rcd protection and an EIC

markyd1 said:

As soon as you change that mcb you are responsible for that circuit so must have rcd protection and an EIC

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Strictly speaking, as soon as one does any electrical work one 'must have' an EIC (or a MEWIC).

As for the RCD protection, that is probably debatable, given that all the OP ended up doing was replacing the faulty 32A MCB with a new 32A MCB, which I'm sure some would argue is not something that invokes a need for the whole circuit (which has one socket, and may well involve buried cable) to be brought into compliance with current regs. However, even if not required by regs, the OP is being sensible in adding RCD protection (albeit a 'plug-in' one) to the one socket on that circuit.

Kind Regards, John

Wrong...RCD plug does not comply....as i said as soon as he replaces that mcb the whole circuit needs rcd protection.He needs to replace it with a RCBO and then do an EIC on that circuit