2 way switch and change of cable ?

[AndyPRK]

Well I decided only one light needed to be 2
Way. (Ceiling or bedsides).

So I just made the bedsides 2 way.


Anyway. The principle is the same. To make a second switch you run a 3c and E to the other switch.

Sockets goto the junction box.

 

[morqthana]

Hmmm now your give the idea of bed lights so what if i wanted 2 way switchable ceiling lights with a bed light each side of the bed that could be turned on and off next to the bed but also on the wall on a 3 gang with the ceiling light

Would you really want to switch the bedside lights from the doorway?

2-gang 2-ways either side of the bed, (one gang used 1-way for the bed light that side), 1-gang intermediate by the door.

 

[ebee]

Well there are lots of different configurations for lighting and that can make it interesting.

The old traditional way of two way lighting was usually singles one to each of the two switches (one being the feed and the other the return to the lamp L) , originally done in singles but later on T & E was also used.

Then the alternative of wiring the first switch with say T & E and from that switch to the second switch - a nice way to convert an existing one way switch for two way switch using only one 3 core and E. Also had the benefit of causing less interference on hearing aid loops too.
(The switch connections had to be altered though and that confused some folk).

In my later working years I would consider on a simple loop in system to the initial first switch not in T & E but in 3C & E instead, that way you still have the ordinary feed and return but also a N if you need it. Off course you would still need a 3C & E from that first switch to the second switch too.

In fact, I`ve seen the 3C & E way of 2 way switching done by A/ not bothering running a T & E feed ad return to the first switch but running instead a 3C & E from each switch to the rose - yes it requires an additional terminal in the rose so you end up using a choc block or a wago in the rose to join two conductors.

That`s only considering 1 Gang switches, if you use 2,3,4 or 6 gang switches somewhere then you have a choice "Do I use the existing L (if its same circuit) or do I run a T & E including L feed for each gang rather than a lower number of T & E/3C & E cables.
It can start to get a big more thought provoking to come across what someone has done previously and a bit taxing if there is a fault or a mistake though.

Can I just make an observation about that little quote about the N being a return path for the L of the lamp to make it operate?
OK on single phase but on 3 phase the lamp return could conceivably by an L on a different phase!

 

[markus2025]

so just to be certain if i wanted to just part rewire the bed rooms and i wasnt fussed about neutral at the switch i
could remove all the old wire from that j box i showed a picture of and bring in a new feed from the old line in ,,, in 1 mm TE , a feed out to the next room 1mm TE and a 1mm feed to the 1st switch


so i would have 3 cables at the pendant a feed in a feed out and a switch feed


at the pendant all brown wires go into brown the brown loop the feed in the feed out and live wire going down to switch


both feed in and feed out blue neutral wires go in the neutral blocks


all earths in earth block


leaving the blue wire heading to the switch which will be a switch live mark it up with brown sheath and put it in the live flex terminal of the rose or connector block if you wasnt working with a rose , next would be the string light which blue would go to the neutrals and brown over to where you just wired the the brown sheaf switch live am i correct in saying that if you didnt have a rose cause you say was fitting down lighters would this connection just be made in a connector block ?


then at the switch , brown into L1 blue switch wire in L2 then get abit of 3 + earth and put grey with brown sleeve into L1 and brown from the 3 core also into L2 , earths into earth and black with brown sleeve on from 3 core into com


then go to next switch other end of the 3 core grey with brown sleeve into L2 and brown into L1 and and black with brown sleeve into com earth to earth and that should be all good

 

[ebee]

All the terminations should be in a junction box (a ceiling rose is only a junction box that usually looks a bit prettier than a big brown junction box).

 

[markus2025]

Ok thanks cause for the 1 bedroom it will be downlighters so i can just put all that in a junction box and then bring the feed to first down lighter onto next and next in a daisy chain

 

[SUNRAY]

If you are replacing the existing switch cable, I suggest putting in two or even three 3C&Es as your thought process is looking to do more.

 

[SUNRAY]

Would you really want to switch the bedside lights from the doorway?

2-gang 2-ways either side of the bed, (one gang used 1-way for the bed light that side), 1-gang intermediate by the door.

Err yes!

Otherwise you enter a dark room, switch on the main light then over to the bed to switch on the daintier lights. When you wake you use the dainty lights and as you exit you have to return to the bedside switch to switch off.

I'd be far more likely to suggest the bedside lights are 2 way at the door than the ceiling light. Looking further afield I know of bedrooms with only bedside and dressing table lighting with no ceiling light. Our main bedroom ceiling light gets vanishingly little use

 

[AndyPRK]

Exactly as sunray says.

Also in modern insulated houses I have a ceiling and fan light combined. With this I prefer not to have this in a 2 way setup. So I know off really means off. (Rather than being off via the remote control)

Defo run 3c&e to the switches.
I wouldn’t put an intermediate by the door. I Can only think of negatives for doing that.

I know we joked earlier, but a pull cord by the bed is simpler. Easier to find (unless you know exactly what furniture you are going to have now. ). Less chasing.

 

[ebee]

All valid points methinks and depending upon differing tastes and idea of convenience.
My personal preference is a means of operating the main room light or other from near the bed whether by pull switch or plate switch but yes sometimes folk do move their beds around .
I do not favour switches inside a room you are bout to go into, in the main - there are exceptions here too.
I do usually favour, to some extent, ganging of switches to some extent as a way to have not people walk into a room to turn a light on then walk back out and take some steps to turn another light off, or conversely walk some distance in the dark to avoid that.

Where I leave, "My town" historically has more preference for the lightswitch being in the intended room. However a very similar neighbouring town has an historical preference for ganging of switches.

When Social Services/ Occupational Therapists request me to consider lighting such they encourage me to show favour for ganging switches because they tend to deal with people who are aged/disabled to some extent.
My home town its more difficult to suggest to the owner yet the other town that`s often what they expect anyway.
Leads me to conclude that many people are used to and see more normal what they are used to rather considering what might be best.
I think must of us have such quirks and foibles about many things in life and not just lighting switches.
I have it historically easier to persuade people to have sockets and switches mounted higher from the floor for sockets and lower on the wall for switches, eventually the recommended mounting heights did . fit into near my preferences. Not all though. And some prefer to see sockets near corners and nearly out of sight rather than where actually easier and usually safer.
Some folks prefer a hidden socket then an extension lead on the carpet (permanently) plugged into what they use even to the extent that it looks far worse than anything - because they have always done it!

No one absolute answer, for anything. Just try to gently persuade by suggestion and let it become "their idea" works best and they are happy -until a friend suggests its all wrong of course (that has actually happened a couple of times).

If people always wants pull switches (or even a "lazy" switch or better still a "lazy Betty" switch) even when no near where the bed usually is then that is where they want it.
"why is it lazy and who the hell was Lazy Betty" ???

 

[markus2025]

so just to be certain if i wanted to just part rewire the bed rooms and i wasnt fussed about neutral at the switch i
could remove all the old wire from that j box i showed a picture of and bring in a new feed from the old line in ,,, in 1 mm TE , a feed out to the next room 1mm TE and a 1mm feed to the 1st switch


so i would have 3 cables at the pendant a feed in a feed out and a switch feed


at the pendant all brown wires go into brown the brown loop the feed in the feed out and live wire going down to switch


both feed in and feed out blue neutral wires go in the neutral blocks


all earths in earth block


leaving the blue wire heading to the switch which will be a switch live mark it up with brown sheath and put it in the live flex terminal of the rose or connector block if you wasnt working with a rose , next would be the string light which blue would go to the neutrals and brown over to where you just wired the the brown sheaf switch live am i correct in saying that if you didnt have a rose cause you say was fitting down lighters would this connection just be made in a connector block ?


then at the switch , brown into L1 blue switch wire in L2 then get abit of 3 + earth and put grey with brown sleeve into L1 and brown from the 3 core also into L2 , earths into earth and black with brown sleeve on from 3 core into com


then go to next switch other end of the 3 core grey with brown sleeve into L2 and brown into L1 and and black with brown sleeve into com earth to earth and that should be all good

Thanks alot guys for your help and advice but just to cover my process above this would all be fine and correct to do?

 

[EFLImpudence]

 

[sparkwright]

Ok well thanks for your help i need to look more in depth of what goes where in regards to com l1 and l2 on both switches

If you want this done the conventional way, without bothering with a neutral you may never need, run a twin and earth from light or junction box to the first switch, and a 3 core and earth from the first switch to the second switch.
If you think a neutral would come in handy at the first switch, run a 3 core and earth from the light or junction box to the first switch, and a 3 core and earth from the first switch to the second switch.
If you feel you must have a neutral at the second switch, run a 3 core and earth from the light or junction box to the first switch, and 2x twin and earths from the first switch to the second switch.

Put the cables in oval conduit in the wall, it is useful if you need to replace cables.

 

[SUNRAY]

"why is it lazy and who the hell was Lazy Betty" ???

Presumably Susans sister.

 

[markus2025]

Thanks alot for your help guys im gaining alot of knowledge from your advice