2013 Part P changes

[JohnW2]

will all self-certifying electricians be eligible, or will there be additional requirements?

As above, unless new restrictions are introduced.

Given that the proposed new AD P distingushes between "competent persons self-registration scheme" and "competent persons third-party certification scheme", I strongly suspect that there may be 'additional requirements' (and an additional scheme membership fee, no doubt) - maybe just a certain of number of years 'experience' as a self-certifier, or something like that?

I don't think it will make much difference but if more charges were introduced by the registration bodies for more pretend qualifications then who would want to do it?

One suspects that some are already doing it, by 'lying'- so maybe at least they would welcome the opportunity to legitimise what they're doing, provided the cost is not too high. However, I largely agree with your sentiments.

Seasons Greetings to everyone!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As it is only a draft guidance document I'll wait until I see the official document before I start knocking my kitchen to bits!!

You're strictly correct - but, from what I know of government documents, I would be extremely surprised if this 'draft' changes before it is 'officially published' (aka removing the word 'Draft'); it was probably 'finalised' ages ago.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Seasons Greetings to everyone!

Best wishes John and to all who sail the good ship DIYnot!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So when are the actual Building Regulations changing? I would expect them to contain the legal definition of "registered third-party certifier"

 

[EFLImpudence]

Seasons Greetings to everyone!

Best wishes John and to all who sail the good ship DIYnot!

Likewise.

 

[SaladFingers]

Seasons Greetings to everyone!

Best wishes John and to all who sail the good ship DIYnot!

Likewise.

I'll second that or third that etc.

BTW, where do the other icons come from?

 

[JohnW2]

So when are the actual Building Regulations changing? I would expect them to contain the legal definition of "registered third-party certifier"

According to the new AD P, the new Part P comes into force on 6th April 2013. As I said, AD P also seems to address the legal definition of "registed third-party certifier" (one imagines quoting {or, at least, reflecting} the 2013 Building Regs) as a "competent person registered with a Part P third-party certifier registration scheme". The only problem is that, as others have said, we don't yet know what the requirements for membership of this 'scheme' will be (apart from the fact that it will undoubtedly have a membership fee!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

BTW, where do the other icons come from?

Anywhere - 'Copy image URL'

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The one thing which is not clear (at least, not to me), since it's not the direct concern of Part P or Approved Document P, is the matter of the fee that LABCs will charge for notification of work that is to be certified by a 'third party certifer'. The most optimistic people seem to be assuming that it will only be a trivial charge (like that for self-certification), but I rather doubt that this is the case. Does anyone know more about this?

I cannot imagine the LABC charging £1.50 for anything.

They won't be charging anything - their involvement will be the same as now when work is done by a registered installer.

As it is at present, I would say nothing as AD P requires an EICR so legally anyone can do it.
This is not a satisfactory method because, as you know, the work could have been done very badly but test satisfactorily.

Were you to supervise the work throughout (as you could now) and issue a n EIC then, as now, it could be registered with the registration body for the £1.50.

They are not anticipating any inspections at first fix.

will all self-certifying electricians be eligible, or will there be additional requirements?

As above, unless new restrictions are introduced.

The scheme organisers will be introducing a new class of registration - that of 3rd party inspector.

and, of course, I wonder what they will be charging for their certtification! Any thoughts about that?

More than £1.50.

About 100x more.

Not considering the reduced notification which may be good, at first glance the document would seem to offer hope of some improvement but the more I look at it the more it would seem to be merely a shift of inspection from the LABC to another person.
That may be good and cheaper if a DIYer actually wants a very small job inspected and tested but that is only because the LA are charging too much at present.

• Suitably trained and qualified members of Competent person schemes will in future be
  permitted to certify the work of others who are not registered electricians, thereby by-
  passing the building control body entirely. We envisage this will be on the basis of
  inspection and testing of the finished installation and will not necessarily include an
  inspection at first fix as assumed in the consultation stage Impact Assessment.
  
• We have sought additional evidence on the cost for this type of third-party certification and
  this has mostly served to confirm the estimate made at consultation of £150. EC Harris
  have reviewed data on the cost of periodic domestic electrical inspection and testing (now
  Electrical Installation Condition Report) which has become more common as private renting
  has become a more common tenure type. They estimate that a competent person would
  charge on average £120-£150 for an EICR depending on the type of dwelling and this is
  based on a large sample of EICR costs.
  
• Twelve responses to the consultation contained substantive comments on the cost of third-
  party inspection and testing. Where specified we have used the cost of conducting an
  EICR, otherwise the given costs of final inspection and testing, which gives an average
  across responses of £151. In the light of these additional sources of evidence the estimate
  made at consultation that £150 would cover two visits to an installation was clearly too low.
  However, as the cost of one visit to carry out inspection and testing it appears to be a
  reasonable estimate. Third party certifiers carrying out inspection work for a local authority
  would have public liability insurance, but third party certifiers will be required to have
  professional indemnity insurance. We have used £150 in the central case, the upper end of
  the estimates specified by EC Harris, to allow for additional insurance required when
  carrying out third party inspection and testing. However, such insurance could be acquired
  by a firm rather than an individual so we would anticipate costs per job would be less than
  £5. This leads to a conservative estimate of the benefits to business of the policy.
  
• As an alternative approach any qualified electrician will be permitted to inspect and test
  work carried out by unregistered installers, and to issue a “condition report” following only a
  final inspection of the completed work but which would still be subject to final formal sign-off
  by the building control body. Our central assumption is that for DIYers this route will be
  more expensive than using the services of a competent person scheme member: inspection
  and testing by an unregistered electrician would cost at least 80% of that estimated for a
  competent person, that is around £120, while the building control sign-off would continue to
  cost £70, giving a total of £190. However this will lead to significant savings for
  unregistered electricians who have the necessary qualifications in inspection and testing to
  produce their own condition report, and therefore would only need to pay £70 to the building
  control body.
  
• A building control body may already accept an inspection and testing report submitted by a
  qualified electrician, regardless of whether they are a competent person scheme member,
  as evidence of compliance, but they are not obliged to. In such circumstances the local
  authority would normally require evidence of the qualifications of the installer. Some
  unregistered, but qualified, electricians may therefore already be carrying out their own
  inspection and testing. However, such a scenario would require the installer to have
  relevant qualifications in inspection and testing so would be unlikely to apply to the average
  DIYer; our estimated savings are cautious because they assume that no DIYers are able to
  take advantage of this route. Our proposals will formalise this arrangement and require
  building control bodies to take into account relevant qualifications of an installer submitting
  an inspection and testing certificate in determining the extent of compliance checks
  required.
  
• As part of their research EC Harris sampled building control fees for electrical work across a
  variety of building control bodies with the average fee being £246, which represents a slight
  increase on the estimate of £231 made for the consultation. Assuming that the
  accompanying building notice takes 15 minutes to complete gives a total of £251.
  
• This means that for DIYers the average saving per job through introducing third-party
  certification is £101 (the average building control fee and notification of £251 minus the cost
  of third-party certification of £150). After accounting for work that will no longer be notifiable
  DIYers are assumed to undertake 26,356 notifiable jobs per annum, so the potential saving
  is £2.8m per year.

 

[SaladFingers]

Likewise. [ img]http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/images/smilies/santa5.gif[ /img]

I'll second that or third that etc.

BTW, where do the other icons come from?

What's the rolly eyes for? How am I supposed to know where the 'other' ones come from?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I shall have a splendid one, and I'm not digging any holes.

 

[mattylad]

I wonder if this will be as well publicised as the last time it was issued?

 

[Spark123]

As it is only a draft guidance document

Are you sure?

As for draft, that is.
It will always be only guidance.

Yep, the word "draft" appears in the URL in the original post

 

[Scoby_Beasley]

....not the least because the issues of wet naked bodies do not (often!) arise in kitchens....

Speak fer yeself!!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Pause for vision of Nigella Lawson naked and dripping wet in the kitchen.










Do not pause for vision of Anthony Worral Thompson naked and dripping wet in the kitchen....