Access to electric, gas, and water what is required?

[ericmark]

The question is really about integral garages and also when that garage changes use for example a granny flat.

In this and last house consumer unit and boiler is/was in the garage, last house also main water stop cock, the doors had locks so it was/is possible the person living in the house does not have a key to the garage, or a key not easy assessed.

The garage door made such a racket we would often not lock it, many times I have been up in middle of night to reset the RCD. The same with boiler, should it trip then into garage or flat to reset.

With a granny flat it is not really a separate premises, they allow dignity to the relative, but it is same as any other room in the house, one can agree not to enter some ones room, but in an emergency one can. But once there are locks on the room that changes, so what are the rules.

 

[conny]

If you are the 'landlord' of the granny flat then you have the right to retain a key for emergency access only.
This means if you need to access the flat to cut off services in an emergency, such as a fire in the building or flooding which may affect the electrics, or there is a danger to life or limb etc then you have means to do so without causing more damage than necessary. You cannot enter without the 'tenants' permission in any other circumstances.

 

[ericmark]

If you are the 'landlord' of the granny flat then you have the right to retain a key for emergency access only.
This means if you need to access the flat to cut off services in an emergency, such as a fire in the building or flooding which may affect the electrics, or there is a danger to life or limb etc then you have means to do so without causing more damage than necessary. You cannot enter without the 'tenants' permission in any other circumstances.

That would mean can't read the electric meter, reading the meter is not an emergency, neither is turning off power to work on things, or servicing the boiler, I can't see how I could every rent out the granny flat, I would have thought electric, heating, water would all need separating and the roof between the flat and main house would need to be fire resistance likely concrete, and although it could be used for family in the same way as any room in the house, it could not be considered as another property.

So going from main house to granny flat would not be considered as going to second home.

Two separate problems, one is to get council to realise the rooms under house is not a second property, seems lack of internal stairs is the problem, and also in old house want to use garage to store items, and the boiler and consumer units are in garage. The boiler instructions state there should be access at all times.

 

[conny]

So you need to come to some form of WRITTTEN agreement between you and the person living there that you will require access at certain times to carry out some function. If the person is actually there at the time then you just need their verbal permission to enter and they do have the right to refuse if it is not an emergency. I think all other times you enter, when they are not there, it would be polite and respectful to let them know when they return that you have been in to do such and such a thing.

 

[JohnW2]

So you need to come to some form of WRITTTEN agreement between you and the person living there that you will require access at certain times to carry out some function. If the person is actually there at the time then you just need their verbal permission to enter and they do have the right to refuse if it is not an emergency.

I would imagine that, in legal terms, that would only be the case if "the person living there" was owner or legal tenant of the room(s) they occupied, wouldn't it? As eric said, if one is allowing a relative to live in room(s) of one's own house, then I would think that is usually a totally informal family arrangement which confers few, if any, legal rights on the 'visitor' one is allowing to occupy space in one's house.

As you have both said, politeness and respectfulness would hopefully cause one to seek permission to enter a part of one's house occupied by a 'visitor' (just as when entering the bedroom of a teenage son or daughter), but I doubt that they would have any legal right to deny such permission.

Having said all that, although I am able and qualified to wear one of several hats, none of them is a lawyer's hat

Kind Regards, John

 

[Gasguru]

I've had similar issues with tenanted properties with different tenants living in each room.
Gas regs require access to the meter control valve at all times.....I placed a key box outside the room.
In an emergency the other tenants could break the perspex window and obtain the key.
This was acceptable to all the tenants and ok'd by Gas-Safe technical at the time.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e...UGXsAKHS-uCNAQ_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1920&bih=988

 

[Tigercubrider]

A granny flat is not classed as a second property is it? And you can "rent a room" without paying extra tax within limits. I would have said that in both those cases you just regard it as a family member's private space but aren't held to Rental Rules

Once it becomes a self contained flat rented out, then surely you're into compliance with gas regs and electrical tests?

I believe that gas /electric will move meters for clients over a certain age?

 

[ericmark]

A granny flat is not classed as a second property is it?

This is my problem Powys county council seem to regard it as a second property, I don't, and they want to charge council tax as a second property, if you know any reason that supports my view that it is one property then I am all ears.

 

[JohnW2]

This is my problem Powys county council seem to regard it as a second property, I don't, and they want to charge council tax as a second property, if you know any reason that supports my view that it is one property then I am all ears.

I cannot speak for Wales.

However, in England, as I understand it, the rules were considerably relaxed around 2014, and the situation now is that a 'granny annexe' is exempt from separate Council tax if it is occupied solely by the occupants of the main house, by a relative over the age of 65 or by someone who is "substantially mentally or physically disabled" - and that if it is occupied by people other than those, a 50% reduction in the Council Tax for the annexe is often available.

However, as I said, I haven't got any clue about Wales.

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

This is my problem Powys county council seem to regard it as a second property

8. Annex (Granny flat)


A self contained annex, where the person who lives in it is a dependent relative of the owner of the main house, will not be charged a Council Tax bill.

The dependent must be 65 or over, severely mentally impaired or have a substantial and permanent disability.

If you think you may be eligible you should contact your local authority Council Tax department.

 

[JohnW2]

...A self contained annex, where the person who lives in it is a dependent relative of the owner of the main house, will not be charged a Council Tax bill. ... The dependent must be 65 or over, severely mentally impaired or have a substantial and permanent disability.

Thanks - so seemingly essentially identical to the situation in England I described in the previous post.

I've heard of people who were thinking of trying to extend the definition of 'a relative' to a fairly ludicrous extent (after all, everyone is ultimately 'related' to everyone else!), but I don't know if they have actually tried it, or got away with it

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

The dependent must be 65 or over, severely mentally impaired or have a substantial and permanent disability.

This can be read two ways, typical lack of thought went into it.

The dependent must be( 65 or over) AND (severely mentally impaired OR have a substantial and permanent disability).

The dependent must be (65 or over) OR (severely mentally impaired) OR (have a substantial and permanent disability).

It makes a big difference.

 

[Adam_151]

It makes a big difference.

It does, but I can't see that the correct interpretation is anything other than this:

The dependent must be (65 or over) OR (severely mentally impaired) OR (have a substantial and permanent disability).

Its an or-separated-list (my term), the commas are deemed to be the same as whatever conjunction follows at the end of the list.

If it was an AND we wouldn't think about interpretting it as an OR. Ie.

I need to get Apples, Bananas and Lemons from the shop is always apples and bananas and lemons, you'd never intepret it as apples or bananas, and Lemons

 

[JohnW2]

I've heard of people who were thinking of trying to extend the definition of 'a relative' to a fairly ludicrous extent (after all, everyone is ultimately 'related' to everyone else!), but I don't know if they have actually tried it, or got away with it

Ah, the legislation has thought of that one (I can't get the formatting quite right in this forum!) ...

(b)a person (“P”) is to be regarded as the relative of another if P—

• (i)is the spouse or civil partner of that person, or
• (ii)is that person’s parent, child, grandparent, grandchild, brother, sister, uncle or aunt, nephew or niece, great-grandparent, great-grandchild, great-uncle, great-aunt, great-nephew or great-niece, or
• (iii)is that person’s great-great-grandparent, great-great-grandchild, great-great-uncle, great-great-aunt, great-great-nephew or great-great-niece; and

(aa) a relationship by marriage or civil partnership shall be treated as a relationship by blood;

(bb) a relationship between two persons who are not married but are living together as a married couple shall be treated as a relationship by marriage and a relationship between two persons of the same sex living together as if they were civil partners shall be treated as a relationship by civil partnership; and
​

(cc) the stepchild of a person shall be treated as that person’s child;

(dd) the child of the civil partner of a person (‘A’) shall be treated as A’s child;​

​

Kind Regards, John

 

[ajohn]

I understand that council tax can only be charged if a property has all of the usual things especially a kitchen, not sure about bathrooms. Not 100% sure.

An anex could just be a bedroom and somewhere to "lounge". If done under change of use I can't see how they could charge extra council tax unless it's rented.

Maybe they consider that the change increases the rating band the property has. I'd have thought that is the most likely reason for wanting an increase.