Adding Dual Fuel Element to towel rail

[jrshodges]

Please go gentle as this is my first post and although I have searched through numerous similar posts I have not found the exact answer I am looking for!

Here goes....I have a chrome towel rail in the bathroom fed by copper pipes, which at it's closest is 0.3m from the bath. I am adding a dual fuel element to this radiator and the element will fit in the furthest side of the radiator from the bath therefore 0.9m from the bath.

I need to know how I connect this to the mains, this is what I propose, but need to know if this is the best and safest way of doing it!

Fit a chrome switched 5amp fused spur ( http://www.astra247.com/2169/Electr...pur-Flex-or-NeonP-Chrome/With-Black-Interior/ ) on the wall in the bathroom 1.3m from the bath, the supply to this fused spur will then be chased into wall and under the floor into the airing cupboard next to the bathroom where I will fit it into some sort of 7 day timer which will be fed into the ring main and back to the fuse boad, I don't have an RCD protected consumer unit, just the old fashioned fuse board!

Is this the right way fo doing it and is there anyhting I have missed?

 

[pdcelec]

this job needs to completed as per the 17th edition wiring regulations and the building regulations

 

[jrshodges]

Great, Thanks. I was hoping maybe someone would be able to give me a little more of an idea of whether what I proposed met these regulations and was best practice!?

 

[electronicsuk]

this job needs to completed as per the 17th edition wiring regulations and the building regulations

Some extensive advice there.

Here goes....I have a chrome towel rail in the bathroom fed by copper pipes, which at it's closest is 0.3m from the bath. I am adding a dual fuel element to this radiator and the element will fit in the furthest side of the radiator from the bath therefore 0.9m from the bath.

That would put the radiator half in zone 2 and half outside the zones, therefore the element itself must be rated to IPX4 or better. IMO the location of the element itself is irrelevant, as once fitted, it is part of the fixed assembly of the radiator.

Fit a chrome switched 5amp fused spur ( http://www.astra247.com/2169/Electr...pur-Flex-or-NeonP-Chrome/With-Black-Interior/ ) on the wall in the bathroom 1.3m from the bath, the supply to this fused spur will then be chased into wall and under the floor into the airing cupboard next to the bathroom where I will fit it into some sort of 7 day timer which will be fed into the ring main and back to the fuse boad, I don't have an RCD protected consumer unit, just the old fashioned fuse board!

Is this the right way fo doing it and is there anyhting I have missed?

No, that isn't the right way to do it. What you propose will effectively put a 7 day timer, probably rated to 13A or less, directly onto a circuit likely to be protected by a 32A device.

I would suggest that you spur a feed in 2.5mm T+E from a socket somewhere outside the bathroom, said socket must be part of the ring, as you should not take a spur from an existing spur. Bring this into an FCU, again somewhere outside the bathroom, and install a fuse of suitable rating. I expect 5A will do the job, but that would depend on the cabling from this point onwards, and the rating of the heater.

You can then install the timeclock next to the FCU (outside the bathroom) and be sure to feed it from the load side. The output from the timer will then need to run to a flex outlet plate located beyond zone 2 (i.e. >0.6m from the bath) and into the radiator.

As per the 17th edition regulations, all electrical accessories in the bathroom must be RCD protected from now on. For you, this will entail either a CU upgrade, or use of a PowerBreaker type RCD fused connection unit. The latter will probably leave you with some RCD protected circuits, and some not (i.e. lighting), therefore you will also need to make sure that the supplemental bonding is up to scratch.

In any case, all the above work is notifiable as it involves a special location in the form of a bathroom. You will either need an electrician who will carry out, inspect and certify the work, or to notify your local building control before starting the work, who will inspect and certify it for you at a cost.

 

[pdcelec]

this job needs to completed as per the 17th edition wiring regulations and the building regulations

Some extensive advice there.

Here goes....I have a chrome towel rail in the bathroom fed by copper pipes, which at it's closest is 0.3m from the bath. I am adding a dual fuel element to this radiator and the element will fit in the furthest side of the radiator from the bath therefore 0.9m from the bath.

That would put the radiator half in zone 2 and half outside the zones, therefore the element itself must be rated to IPX4 or better. IMO the location of the element itself is irrelevant, as once fitted, it is part of the fixed assembly of the radiator.

Fit a chrome switched 5amp fused spur ( http://www.astra247.com/2169/Electr...pur-Flex-or-NeonP-Chrome/With-Black-Interior/ ) on the wall in the bathroom 1.3m from the bath, the supply to this fused spur will then be chased into wall and under the floor into the airing cupboard next to the bathroom where I will fit it into some sort of 7 day timer which will be fed into the ring main and back to the fuse boad, I don't have an RCD protected consumer unit, just the old fashioned fuse board!

Is this the right way fo doing it and is there anyhting I have missed?

No, that isn't the right way to do it. What you propose will effectively put a 7 day timer, probably rated to 13A or less, directly onto a circuit likely to be protected by a 32A device.

I would suggest that you spur a feed in 2.5mm T+E from a socket somewhere outside the bathroom, said socket must be part of the ring, as you should not take a spur from an existing spur. Bring this into an FCU, again somewhere outside the bathroom, and install a fuse of suitable rating. I expect 5A will do the job, but that would depend on the cabling from this point onwards, and the rating of the heater.

You can then install the timeclock next to the FCU (outside the bathroom) and be sure to feed it from the load side. The output from the timer will then need to run to a flex outlet plate located beyond zone 2 (i.e. >0.6m from the bath) and into the radiator.

As per the 17th edition regulations, all electrical accessories in the bathroom must be RCD protected. For you, this will entail either a CU upgrade, or use of a PowerBreaker type RCD fused connection unit.

In any case, all the above work is notifiable as it involves a special location in the form of a bathroom. You will either need an electrician who will carry out, inspect and certify the work, or to notify your local building control before starting the work, who will inspect and certify it for you at a cost.

What about the rest of the regulations?

 

[electronicsuk]

What about the rest of the regulations?

If you wish to quote all the regulations relevant to this job then do feel free, as to create a comprehensive list is going to take you some time. In the meantime, we can carry on offering constructive advice useful to the DIYer, rather than unhelpful comments such as yours above.

 

[pdcelec]

What about the rest of the regulations?

If you wish to quote all the regulations relevant to this job then do feel free, as to create a comprehensive list is going to take you some time. In the meantime, we can carry on offering constructive advice useful to the DIYer, rather than unhelpful comments such as yours above.

I would have thought something useful like safe cable runs would be appropriate to the OP, but this want mentioned. I think my offerings are helpful as they possibly saving a life!. I will not tell him how to do it in case he doesnt understand all the possibilities

 

[pdcelec]

BTW, I did quote the relevant regulations in my first post

 

[electronicsuk]

I would have thought something useful like safe cable runs would be appropriate to the OP, but this want mentioned. I think my offerings are helpful as they possibly saving a life!. I will not tell him how to do it in case he doesnt understand all the possibilities

Each to their own, as I don't want to turn the OPs topic into a petty debate, but it seems to me that a DIY forum may not be the ideal place for you. It has been clearly stated that this is notifiable work, where the OP goes from here is up to him/her.

Simply stating that the work must confirm to the 17th ed. and building regulations is not particularly helpful to a DIYer unless they happen to, for example, have a copy of the 17th hanging around, which seems unlikely. If there are any issues with non-compliance then this should be picked up when the OPs work is inspected by the BCO, so I fail to see any safety concerns in offering advice, as long as the correct notification procedures are followed.

 

[pdcelec]

I need a filling in my tooth. Could you tell me how to do that, so I can save the cost of a dentist?

 

[jrshodges]

All, thank you very much for the extra information, that answers my questions...what I proposed is not correct and/or safe!

I will install as described above by electronicsuk and then get an elctrician to insepct and sign off...assuming this is acceptable, I am having a new CU installed in January anyway, so this I assume will mean all circuits will be tested and I won't be using the Dual Fuel element until summer anyway, I just wanted to get it installed so that I can complete the decorating in the bathroom.

Sorry to have started an argument...

Thanks again for all your help.

James

 

[pdcelec]

and the safety between now and january?

 

[electronicsuk]

I will install as described above by electronicsuk and then get an elctrician to insepct and sign off...assuming this is acceptable, I am having a new CU installed in January anyway, so this I assume will mean all circuits will be tested and I won't be using the Dual Fuel element until summer anyway, I just wanted to get it installed so that I can complete the decorating in the bathroom.

The BCO are the only ones able to inspect and certify DIY work, an electrician can only certify his/her own work or that of others under their direct supervision.

That isn't to say you wont find one who'll do it for you, some may be happy to connect everything up and test as long as they can see what cable you have run and where. For that reason, you would need to ask around and get an electrician involved before starting the work, and make sure he's a member of a self certification scheme.

Would advise the heater be left disconnected until the new CU is fitted.

EDIT: My apologies for starting a debate/argument within your topic, although I hope we have still been able to offer some useful advice. Also many thanks to pdcelec for his in-depth, one-line answers.

 

[jrshodges]

As I said I won't be using it until summer, so infact I guess I don't even need to connect it up until my new CU is installed, I just need to get the work in the bathroom complete so could just put the flex outlet plate on and wire the Dual Fuel element in and run cable back to outside bathroom ready for wiring in by the electrician when he comes to do the new CU?

 

[electronicsuk]

As I said I won't be using it until summer, so infact I guess I don't even need to connect it up until my new CU is installed, I just need to get the work in the bathroom complete so could just put the flex outlet plate on and wire the Dual Fuel element in and run cable back to outside bathroom ready for wiring in by the electrician when he comes to do the new CU?

Yes, that should be fine. Have a read through the WIKI first and make sure you understand the different zones within the bathroom, as well as safe zones for cables as mentioned by my friend earlier.

If the element does not come pre-terminated with a length of cable, I would suggest you run a length of 1.0 or 1.5mm flex between the flex outlet plate and timer/FCU, leaving plenty of slack. Exact cable size depends on the rating of the element, but I presume it'll be no more than 500w.