aerial distribution advice please

[josh1e]

Hi,

sorry if this post is in the wrong place, i have looked for Aerial section & can't see one....

I've 4 sky boxes, 1 HD (on sub), 1sky+ (multiroom) & 2 normal digiboxes on freeview.

I would like to be able to watch any box from any room, and be able to remote control the HD / SKY+ box from another room.

I already have a global 4output loftbox. I've not been able to find very good information on installing it, although understand it can provide both satellite signals and dc passthrough for a sky remote extender.

The loftbox connections state cctv / fm / dab /uhf2 / living room / out 1 / out 2 / out 3 / out 4

I've already run 2x rg6 cables to 5 rooms. one cable for supply & one for return, these are connected to global triplexed faceplates with additional seperate returns.

With only 2 useable RF inputs I think I need a combiner / RF 4 input amplifier?

Please can someone let me know what they think is the best way to achieve this?

I have global 2gang faceplates with 2xsat, 1x tv, 1xFM/DAB & 2 modules, although these only allow dc on the return sat feed, In the future I would like to use both sat feeds for LNB signals & then use the uhf2 connection with a remote extender on a seperate return connection. (although i think this means a 3rd cable & a return module on each plate?)

lastly, If i connect all the sky boxes on RF2. Would I be able to turn them all over from 1 room if i used the correct remote for each box? would rf2 output need to be enabled on them all or just one to provide power to the remote extender? would they damage each other / loftbox if i enabled rf2 power on all of them & then connected them all?

thanks.

 

[flameport]

That loftbox is a device to distribute the output from ONE sky receiver to other rooms. It will also distribute terrestrial TV, FM radio and DAB to the other rooms if you want it to.

There is no way to use it (or anything like it) with multiple sky receivers.

To clarify - just what have you got in the way of sky boxes? 4 normal Sky boxes AND an HD AND a Sky+ box (6 in total)? OR 2 normal ones, an HD and a +? Or something else?
How are all these boxes connected currently (or are they connected at all)?

 

[electronicsuk]

That loftbox is a device to distribute the output from ONE sky receiver to other rooms. It will also distribute terrestrial TV, FM radio and DAB to the other rooms if you want it to.

There is no way to use it (or anything like it) with multiple sky receivers.

While it's true that your LoftBox only has one input, that doesn't mean you can't use it. As far as I'm aware, there is no channel filtering on the UHF inputs, so you can in theory feed as many inputs into there as necessary using a splitter/combiner.

In theory is the operative phrase there. There is a very high probability that what you want to do will not work very well at all if you simply feed the RF outputs of four sky boxes into a splitter/combiner. The results are likely to be flaky at best - RF outputs on STBs are well known to be quite 'noisy', and it's likely that combining so many of them will cause a lot of cross channel interference.

Firstly, forget the RF in on the STBs completely, it is intended solely as a pass-through for customers with older TV sets with no SCART/HDMI in or for looping through to a VCR/DVD recorder. If you really do have 4x Sky boxes (and not 2x Sky and 2x terrestrial freeview) then all the incoming signals will be from the LNB, and therefore there is no need for an antenna connection at anything other than the LoftBox itself.

Secondly, but yourself a four input channel filter/leveller. This will allow you to equalise the signal strength at the LoftBox from all 4 STBs - otherwise, you could find that the stronger signal from the shorter cable runs causes over-modulation, basically leading to poor reception on some or all channels. Just as importantly, the filter section will only allow a narrow band to pass through on each input, such that with proper channel planning you should be able to prevent the majority of the crud on the STBs RF output from reaching the LoftBox amp.

As these filter/levellers are only generally found in large MATV setups and not domestic installs, you wont just be able to pop down to B&Q to purchase one. However, they are available directly from Taylor Bros (www.taylorbros.co.uk), although they are also resold by a couple of other companies, albeit at a higher price.

You also need to plan ahead with channel allocations, as you need to specify the filter channels at the time of ordering. Unless you buy a (significantly more expensive) agile unit, there will be no way to adjust the channels the filters are set to after purchase. You will obviously need to find out the channels in use by your local transmitter(s) (some of which you may also have to filter out to free up space for your 4 extra channels), and you should also avoid n+9 and n+5 channel spacing.

If you really are intent on doing this job properly then it's going to get costly, but any other approach is likely to give very poor results.

There are also some excellent reads here

 

[josh1e]

Hi guys,

thanks for the replies.

Flameport

Yes i really do have lots of sky boxes, either from current subs or old subs which have since been replaced....

4 are currently in use. two spare. I have two children who watch tele in there own rooms and we dont really want to watch there cartoons.

The boxes are

HD Box in lounge on sub (HD sub)
SKY+ box in first bedroom (multiroom sub)
SKY digibox in 2nd bedroom freeview channels only)
SKY digibox in 3rd bedroom (freeview channels only)
SKY digibox in workshop (not plugged in yet)
Technomate reciever with motorised dish

octo lnb on standard sky dish direct to each receiver

I have already run the cabling for the rooms and mounted / installed the faceplates. I successfully have the lounge RF channel available in the bedrooms & can turn it over using the digi eye.

In "some" rooms i can very happily watch an amazing picture from the lounge or either child's bedroom...

however, it doesn't seem consistant, as in other rooms the signal from all inputs is sh*te to say the least.... I'm not sure if its because i start to introduce the other cables / digibox outputs or if it's a cabling fault / interference in the cable run, but the signal degrades in some of the rooms (the closer ones are the worst affected, rooms with a longer cable run seem less affected)

I can watch 3 inputs in my bedroom & the workshop fine. stunning quality for a RF channel, however in the lounge & sons rooms, the pictures are pretty p*ss poor

at the moment i am using a 2way splitter (metal type) which i had laying around to add the sky+ box to the loftbox input, althogh i realise this isnt ideal & hence asked for help..

@matthew

i've currently allocated channels 55, 59, 63 & 68, although you say not +3 or +5? maybe that's what's causing some of my interference when i turn on the 2nd box.... When the kids are out, i will try changing the channel frequencies & try again... repeatedly tuning 5 tv's .... oh joy...

I looked into the fracarro 5input amp which has independant variable inputs, it only has 1 output & i thought this may work with the loftbox? it's only £25 too what do you think?

I have no antenna inputs in anything other than the loftbox, that's correct. I have no other inputs to the loftbox or tv sets other than what is listed here at the moment. other fm / dab aerials will follow but are less important atm..

I am not using the "sat ant" (lnb input) yet. I have a technomate reciever with motorised dish i want to set up at a later date & was saving the input for that... however I am not sure now if i can use it while i am using sat2 for the digi eye connection .... - further reading necessary there.... (i think sat1 & sat2 faceplate connections are on seperate cables to the faceplates so hopefully will be okay)

being able to view the outputs of each sky box though is the important thing, we work from home so can make use of the 2nd box while the kids are at school, also can keep an eye on what the kids are watching in there rooms & ensure it's appropriate...

I'll take a read of that link on your post m8 & do some investigation into the filter / levellers, thanks. I've tried googling, but not much comes up except splitter / combiners... weren't much use tbh...

I am beginning to think the shorter cabled runs are too powerful for the longer cable runs, so hopefully a filter or variable input amp would solve that?

thanks for the detailed reply & info, i will do some more reading & see what i can come up with... i can search on leveller's now too..... bl**dy terminology, google's so picky hehe

 

[ericmark]

I have tried loft box but at the time it did not help me. But I have tried to feed a free to satellite, Standard Sky, DVD and VCR to all rooms and I have found there is cross channel interference which is hard to get around with the four RF outputs plus the existing freeview and analogue channels. The box I use for DVD seems to be too cheap and poor filters and using just the two satellite boxes it all works well so I only switch on VCR and DVD when required. Much depends on what channels are free to use and because I live on a hill I receive two transmitters so using every other free frequency I am right on the edge of squeezing them in.

Since you are not receiving freeview direct you may be able to get them all to fit if not connecting direct to aerial but most freeview boxes have a feed through and although you may be able to turn RF from freeview box on and off you normally have no way to turn pass through on and off.

Different areas use different frequencies for both multiplex signals and analogue so can't say how it will work with you.

As far as I am aware all sky boxes use same remote so you will only be able to control one box with the remote remote units. I have never tried using one here and with free to satellite box the remote is different. I have a box with the 6 remotes DVD writer, DVD player/audio system, TV, VCR, Satellite, and Sky. Three are Panasonic so multi-function but non seem to interfere with others I am lucky?

 

[josh1e]

Hi Ericmark.

thanks for the reply, interesting about the two transmitters & freeview passthrough.....

I don't have any freeview receivers. just sky recievers. the ones without a subscription (sub) are being used in freeview only mode. but obviously from a satellite dish not freeview aerial... the only "stray" signals should be weak background signals (hopefully)

I will start by looking up the free / best channels to try setting the boxes to... we have a roof mounted aerial, although it's not connected to anything (yet)... I havent inspected it to check it's working, not rusted / connections are safe / warrant plugging into my loftbox or if it's analogue / digital / freeview / fm etc... (standard silver fins with black x fins)

 

[electronicsuk]

HD Box in lounge on sub (HD sub)
SKY+ box in first bedroom (multiroom sub)
SKY digibox in 2nd bedroom freeview channels only)
SKY digibox in 3rd bedroom (freeview channels only)
SKY digibox in workshop (not plugged in yet)
Technomate reciever with motorised dish

octo lnb on standard sky dish direct to each receiver

Just a thought, but if you have Sky boxes practically coming out your ears, would it not be better to simply have an STB in every room, and then distribute the RF out of 1 or 2 of these boxes to provide the subscription channels?

In "some" rooms i can very happily watch an amazing picture from the lounge or either child's bedroom...

however, it doesn't seem consistant, as in other rooms the signal from all inputs is sh*te to say the least.... I'm not sure if its because i start to introduce the other cables / digibox outputs or if it's a cabling fault / interference in the cable run, but the signal degrades in some of the rooms (the closer ones are the worst affected, rooms with a longer cable run seem less affected)

Perhaps there's something up there on one of the higher UHF frequencies causing a problem. Although longer cables = more signal attenuation, it also stands that the higher the frequency the greater the attenuation. By the time the signal gets to the tuner in the TV set at the end of a long cable run, whatever was causing the problem with the closer sets may be weak enough not to be giving you so much hassle.

It might be even simpler than that, perhaps you're putting out such a powerful signal from the amp that you're overpowering the tuner in the TV sets attached to the shorter cable runs. You could try a 6dB attenuator on the problem sets and see if that helps at all, but this shouldn't be necessary on a properly designed system.

i've currently allocated channels 55, 59, 63 & 68, although you say not +3 or +5? maybe that's what's causing some of my interference when i turn on the 2nd box.... When the kids are out, i will try changing the channel frequencies & try again... repeatedly tuning 5 tv's .... oh joy...

I have to apologise there, as I actually meant n + 5 and n+ 9. I've edited my post so you probably look a bit silly now

Anyways, if you're having this much trouble with the RF outs of two STBs then just imagine the joys when you're trying the same with four. You really do need the ability to filter and level each RF output individually, and you can't get that with a simply passive splitter.

I looked into the fracarro 5input amp which has independant variable inputs, it only has 1 output & i thought this may work with the loftbox? it's only £25 too what do you think?

It would be an improvement, but probably still a waste of money. The 'variable inputs' are simple variable attenuators, it will go some way to allowing you to equalise the signal strength of your RF outs, but it still wont provide any filtering. Whether or not that will be good enough to give an acceptable picture is anyones guess - it really does depend on the amount of interference generated by the RF modulators inside the STBs.

Also, feeding the output of one amp into the input of the LoftBox is likely to make your local channels significantly stronger than anything coming in through the aerial. Unless you attenuate the output of the amp before feeding it into the loftbox, you might destroy all your analogue and DTT reception. Also remember that as well as amplifying the useful signals, you will also be amplifying any crud from the RF outs on the STBs.

The cash would be better spent on a suitable filter/leveller, and four small setback amps to site local to each STB and connected inline with the RF out. Otherwise, the attenuation introduced by the filter/leveller will leave you with little usable signal to feed to the LoftBox.

I have no antenna inputs in anything other than the loftbox, that's correct. I have no other inputs to the loftbox or tv sets other than what is listed here at the moment. other fm / dab aerials will follow but are less important atm..

OK, that sounds sensible.

I am not using the "sat ant" (lnb input) yet. I have a technomate reciever with motorised dish i want to set up at a later date & was saving the input for that... however I am not sure now if i can use it while i am using sat2 for the digi eye connection .... - further reading necessary there.... (i think sat1 & sat2 faceplate connections are on seperate cables to the faceplates so hopefully will be okay)

Can't answer that one for you.

thanks for the detailed reply & info, i will do some more reading & see what i can come up with... i can search on leveller's now too..... bl**dy terminology, google's so picky hehe

As I say, have a read of those articles on the Wrights Aerials site, there's plenty to take in.

 

[josh1e]

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for the info,

am "still" on the link you gave me alot of very good information on there - thanks....

Will reply again tomorrow, as i don't think i'm even half way through reading the interesting / relevant bits yet..

good site though, very easy to understand for average joe like me

 

[ericmark]

If no terrestrial signals you should have no problems. I used a Mercury ILS102 Universal RF Modulator for my DVD player and it does work but not as good as the units built into the sky boxes and if too near to freeview channels it knocked them out.

Also the Scart Thru Loop was one way only and using the DVD reader/writer we are unable to record from the freeview build into the TV if we use that unit.

I have also found that the TV's seem to vary as to how well they discriminate between the signals. Also we have three boxes connected to same quad LNB and two are one on top of other so we can record and watch but swap the LNB feeds between to two boxes and the Pace one fails with not enough signal strength. There is a better signal from one cable to other but the Turkish free to air box I am using has no problems using the reduced signal. Plus it can be set up to auto rotate the dish etc. Which is not available with the Sky Pace unit.

I have been considering a second dish aimed at euro bird is that by any chance why you have multi boxes?

 

[josh1e]

Hi Ericmark,

I actually looked at modulators last night, funny you should mention them, I have a cctv system i want to put up, when i find time... and it can only connect to the loftbox via an rf modulator... (another channel to find....) I noticed some mentioned PLL technology, cheaper ones don't, apparantly they can suffer channel "drift".. which this is supposed to help combat....?

The sky boxes are all pointed at normal sky channels / satellite, I've got a technomate receiver, it does receive freeview channels from wherever you point it's own dish at, it has cams (conditional access modules) built in, and also allows for reprogramming of its own internal software to allow "pretend" cams to be installed..

I used to play with this receiver alot, pointing it at different satellites to see what i could pick up, but haven't used it for around a year or so, just too busy

I have a 1.2m dish on a motorised mount for it, so the technomate receiver can control it via an external positioner. When i was actively playing with it, i found i could pick up some 5,000 tv channels easily, at least 60% of those were free to air (not pay per view / card / subscription required)

There are websites like toecutters den, who if you wanted would supply you with free codes to enter into your receiver which would decrypt some of the international channels.. how well these work & for how long i'm not sure... we have guests who sometimes stay with us, but don't live in england, so it was nice for them to be able to relax in the guest bedroom & watch "local" channels if & when they wanted...

I would like to setup my motorised system again, that's one of the reasons why i've left the sat input free on the loftbox, i can then put the technomate in almost any room while the rest of the family hog the other tv's the other reason being the loftbox only has 1 sat input & most of the rooms i wanted cabling for 2. (most kids stay at home longer now & pvr's / twin tuner receivers are becoming standard) so it seemed sensible to cable it once.

The HD & sky+ box are already on the RF loop & I would like to add 1 digibox & the modulator when it finally gets setup, along with the technomate's RF output, so still some extra channels to think about, the reason for the digibox is mostly so we can see what our children are watching & ensure it's suitable, also turn it / them off remotely..

I understand from satcure website that the digiboxes, sky+ & skyHD boxes all have different codes in the remotes, so one remote will not work on all of them, this is correct because i've tried it

the loftbox is tvlink branded & says it will pass digi eye signals, so hopefully i can turn on all the rf2 outputs, connect all the receivers via RF2 to the loftbox. then have a digi eye connected to the loftamp. if the rf2 loop sees signals from the digi eye it should hopefully only change the receiver whose remote i'm using.... I'll try it monday when the kids goto school ....