Alarm installer trade bodies and other questions...

[thetcutkid]

Hi,

Following an attempted break-in a few doors down this week, it has once again brought the subject of getting a house alarm to our minds.

Now, setting my stall out early, if money was no object and the house was about to be gutted and redecorated, I'd go for a fully wired system, professionally installed, however, we're not in that position - we don't have an endless budget and don't want surface mounted wires running everywhere since we can't have them chased into walls, hidden under floorboards, etc.

This has inevitably lead me to looking at wireless/wi-fi 'smart' systems (Yale mainly I guess) which I could install myself. I know, having spent the afternoon reading posts on the forum, these get mixed reviews and for many pro installers are frankly laughable. I totally subscribe to the 'you get what you pay for' point of view but if you don't have the budget for an all bells and whistles system, what do you do ?

So I have a couple of slightly random questions :-

If I was to engage the services of a professional installer, are the relevant trade bodies, NSI, SSAIB, BSIA the place to look and reliable? By that I mean (and I don't want to be rude, maybe just blunt, sorry) can anyone pay to join these organisations and just slap an accreditation on the side of their van or is membership a bit more difficult to attain ?

If I were to go with a system that completely relied on my broadband connection (cable) and someone cuts the cable entering my house (it would be easy to do) is that the whole system knackered, would it trigger the siren ?

Would it be possible to have a system that didn't rely on my broadband connection but was completely wireless inside the house to all the relevant sensors and still 'smart' in the sense I could control it from my smartphone, or maybe a fob too ?

When we first started thinking about an alarm, we wanted something really basic that just covered the main entry points of the house (front, back and patio doors) plus a large window on the landing, so we didn't want PIR's in every room, just door/window contact sensors on the aforementioned entry points. Is that a sensible approach or are PIR's an absolutely must have? I appreciate if I buy a 'kit' there will probably be at least two PIR's included anyway so I have no real problem with that, I'd just have to add a lot more contact sensors I guess.

There's a wealth of info on the boards here which is amazing but after reading so much, you kinda get a bit 'snowblind' to it all and really do question the best way to go.

Many thanks for your time.

 

[sparkymarka]

Lol....don’t think you realise what it takes to be NSI / SSAIB accredited.... they actually come and inspect the jobs that you have installed .....so no it’s not just a piece of paperwork anybody can fill in ......And yes it’s not free to be a member , it’s a yearly cost to the company ....
Unfortunately these days the end user wants to pay as little as possibly and expect all the lastest gizmos ....
As for a monitoring a system there are various options from an app via your broadband to gprs / Gsm modules to a central station monitored system , again they all have £ cost ....

 

[thetcutkid]

Lol....don’t think you realise what it takes to be NSI / SSAIB accredited..

No I don't, which is exactly why I asked the question.

I don't want something for nothing, neither do I want a load of 'gizmos', I just want clarification on, what I see as, a couple of key points to help me understand what is possible in order to achieve a reliable system.

Thanks for your time.

 

[secureiam]

accreditation is falsely advertised sometimes but like gas safe you can check if a firm is currently registered (renewed annually), it doesn't make the company reliable, so current reputation does help.

If you buy a kit off the shelf chances are that is not enough on its own unless it's a small property two up two down say.

Also depends on layout and what you need, is garage, Windows, rooms, conservatory, etc etc

Hard wired is always preferential to wireless.

So first question is what's your budget, can you get hard wired bell, or is everything going to be wireless

 

[Handymanjo]

As Secure recommends, choose the right product for the job.
Yale are a very basic product and the range of devices is very limited.
Look at other products like Pyronix enforcer. You pay a little more ,but the range of devices will cover all your needs.
You will get plenty of advice on this forum with this product. Yale customer services is poor and products don't seem to last that long.
Buy cheap buy twice.

 

[thetcutkid]

secureiam and handymanjo many thanks for your replies.

accreditation is falsely advertised sometimes but like gas safe you can check if a firm is currently registered (renewed annually), it doesn't make the company reliable, so current reputation does help...

This is exactly my point, I don't know anyone 'in the trade' personally, so would have to find some other means of weeding out the cowboys. The first company I found in my area by using the search facility on the SSAIB website appears to have an incorrect address, the second had an unsecured website which I thought a touch ironic.

...depends on layout and what you need, is garage, Windows, rooms, conservatory, etc etc...what's your budget, can you get hard wired bell, or is everything going to be wireless

In terms of layout, our house is a bog standard 3 bed semi, no garage, not extended in anyway, no conservatory. We have a uPVC porch, with double interior (wooden) doors, so I'd be looking to alarm the two interior front doors, the uPVC backdoor, the two uPVC patio doors and a large uPVC window on the landing.

In terms of budget, taking a basic starter kit from Yale as an example and adding enough door/window contact sensors to cover the above, I got to just over £400 so lets say approx. £400-£500 installed.

Where you say 'hard wired bell' do you mean wiring the outdoor siren directly into the system ?

...choose the right product for the job...

I guess this is what I'm trying to do but with an admittedly limited budget.

...Look at other products like Pyronix enforcer...

I've seen that system name checked several times in my research this afternoon, I wasn't entirely sure however if it was available to buy retail, I got the impression it was trade only ?

 

[secureiam]

I doubt you would get a pro in for your budget.

Lots of online outlets.

 

[scott1980]

I would forget about contacts on doors, except for the main entrance door. PIRs will give you the best protection to cost ratio as they will cover an entire room. I would recommend one in each room downstairs, including the hallway.

You won't find many pro installers fitting a proper system for your budget I'm afraid, so you may have to DIY. Most wireless systems available are pretty easy for a competent DIYer to install without too much trouble, although there will be teething issues judging from the amount of Enforcer and Texecom queries on here (and I'm not sure these systems end up being fully installed/programmed correctly if I'm honest, they were never intended for the self install market and are not supported as such)

As for communications, you will struggle to find anything that's not completely reliant on your home WiFi/Broadband connection unless you want to spend a bit more. There are GPRS based solutions but these come with ongoing costs. If you go down the Enforcer route, the cloud subscription is also an ongoing cost, even just for the included WiFi card option.

 

[bernardgreen]

you will struggle to find anything that's not completely reliant on your home WiFi/Broadband connection

Using a standard telephone land line with auto dialler will work even if the WiFi/Broadband is out of action due to a power cut disabling the router. The alarm system will ( should ) have battery backup ).

A hard wired system will always be better than a wireless system as communications in a wireless system have to be a compromise between what is necessary in a reliable system and what is permitted by regulations and the need to have long battery life in the sensors.

 

[thetcutkid]

Thanks for your reply scott1980

...You won't find many pro installers fitting a proper system for your budget I'm afraid, so you may have to DIY...

In the small amount of research I've done over the last couple of days, its seems that there's not much middle ground - it's either a cheaper system that's almost not fit for purpose or it's a much more expensive system that will have many more bells and whistles than I really need. The option of having a SIM equipped system to dial out in case of internet failure seems sensible but yearly subscriptions and monitoring is something I don't want.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Handymanjo]

Equipment with a SIM card is not cheap.
Other option would be router with fail over SIM card, but they are not cheap either.
Carry on doing you research and do some costings, then come back and ask questions on the product you think might be right for you.

 

[secureiam]

Unfortunately yearly subscriptions app based panels will be all too common to cover cost of infrastructure.

You can add a cheap gsm module for sms in case of an alarm condition and have app based coms for everything else, the cheapest options for these are around £30 mark and limited in function, but say if you had a alarm manufacturers solution the price would be significantly higher.

For example a gsm com module cost around £120 mark, connected to a Texecom panel would allow remote control as will as well as detailed message from the alarm system.

The panel has a back up battery, but you could use an UPS for your router many relatively small solutions , that would get you through many relatively short power cuts.
As for how long it will last will depend on back up battery quality and how much power your router is drawing.

in general if you pay £20 for hard wired detector, its equivalent wireless would be around £80 based on a Texecom DT and a DT-W. So DIY hard wired you could get all the kit easily enough, time installing it and running cables is where the install cost rise up as t takes a lot of time.

You can look at what sensors you think you need and look at what kits are on offer.
Kits are the cheapest way of buying usually. Then add to.

 

[scott1980]

Using a standard telephone land line with auto dialler will work even if the WiFi/Broadband is out of action due to a power cut disabling the router. The alarm system will ( should ) have battery backup ).

A hard wired system will always be better than a wireless system as communications in a wireless system have to be a compromise between what is necessary in a reliable system and what is permitted by regulations and the need to have long battery life in the sensors.

True, but a standard PSTN line is no good if the line is cut prior to a break in. Also, with PSTN being on borrowed time, it's a waste of money investing in any signalling device that uses that technology as it'll be obsolete soon. As a company, we haven't installed anything that uses PSTN for 6 years and are migrating the existing legacy devices over to GPRS/IP tech.

I completely agree with your second point RE wireless systems. Most installers consider these a "one size fits all" when it comes to domestic systems, but any advantage presented by the simple installation soon disappears when you get a problematic site. Blame the cost cutting and lack of skill of most of the current breed of installers, many of whom will never see a roll of 8 core alarm cable

 

[bernardgreen]

but a standard PSTN line is no good if the line is cut prior to a break in.

RedCare line monitoring can be used to raise the alarm if the phone line has been cut / failed.

 

[scott1980]

RedCare line monitoring can be used to raise the alarm if the phone line has been cut / failed.

You're trying to teach granny how to suck eggs Bernard Redcare Classic (ie single path Redcare monitoring) as a new singalling option was phased out by BT nearly 2 years ago. They're still around in older installations but it's a dying technology. Besides, most insurers/risks will dictate dual path signalling a a minimum these days. Yes, you will be notified of a line fault but you won't get any subsequent alarm signals once the line has failed. Besides, costs would be way out of the price range of the average home owner (myself included)