Amd 3 and plastic wall plugs

[SUNRAY]

Whilst I agree with the concept of what you say (that trunking etc. needs to be 'fixed properly'), it seems a little hard to see that the weight of 2 or 3 feet of cable (I presume 1.5mm² at the largest in your example, since it's going to a light switch) would be enough to pull anything off a wall. Even if it had been lead-sheathed cable, I still wouldn't have expected the weight of that, per se, to be enough.

Kind Regards, John

That particular example was jam packed with twin and earths, including a 16mm and 2x6mm to the point it was difficult to get the lid back on and to be honest was a real PITA to repair. As much as anything else (especially in this example) I'd blame the use of a countersunk screw and no washer which tends to distort the fixing hole in the trunking.
Of course it is possible it was damaged by a hirer as the hall averages 20 hires a week.

 

[JohnW2]

That particular example was jam packed with twin and earths, including a 16mm and 2x6mm ...

Ah! - that rather moves the goalposts

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Ah! - that rather moves the goalposts

Kind Regards, John

Oh yes...

 

[mattylad]

I have a fire exit at work where the steel trunking above it is only supported by some poorly fitted plastic plugs and not very good screws.
Elsewhere it uses rawlbolts.
Weird.

I have some bolts ready to fit once I find my round tuit.
It seems that you don't need to be an electrician to remember these things, the electricians have too many other things to think about - like how long until knocking off time, when the sausage butties arrive etc. So I have to mention these little things and occasionally get a grunt of "oh yeah"... lol

 

[SUNRAY]

I have a fire exit at work where the steel trunking above it is only supported by some poorly fitted plastic plugs and not very good screws.
Elsewhere it uses rawlbolts.
Weird.

I have some bolts ready to fit once I find my round tuit.
It seems that you don't need to be an electrician to remember these things, the electricians have too many other things to think about - like how long until knocking off time, when the sausage butties arrive etc. So I have to mention these little things and occasionally get a grunt of "oh yeah"... lol

Ah yes but...
Don't forget there is likely to be a big juicy lintel of some sort and all too often some people seem to find it too hard to do the job properly.

 

[OwainDIYer]

It seems that you don't need to be an electrician to remember these things, the electricians have too many other things to think about - like how long until knocking off time, when the sausage butties arrive etc.

Electricians do not eat sausage butties. Electricians eat dry cured ham on artisan rye. Sausage butties are for plumbers.

 

[Echo the husky]

In a fire I'd be more worried about the toxic smoke coming from dado trunking and the cables within than if it fell down the wall a bit. Certainly a good idea to keep everything properly supported through escape routes during a fire. We overloaded a small length of bell wire recently, the large amount of smoke released would have been terrible to breathe, trunking full of cables on fire would be unbearable.

Electricians do not eat sausage butties. Electricians eat dry cured ham on artisan rye. Sausage butties are for plumbers.

Too posh for me, it was sausage, bacon and omelette butties today!

 

[333rocky333]

DOES anybody know how this new regulation will apply to plastic dado trunking?

It seems that plastic dado trunking could fall foul in two ways: one) if it is fitted to the wall using plastic wallplugs and two) the fact that it is a plastic enclosure holding cables on a wall.

Theres a range of clips to go inside plastic trunkings, etc and fix through into the wall , again only a certain amount are needed, some only look like bits of bent wire, but with the correct fixing deemed suitable.
Most wholesalers have leaflets and gumph for you to read up.
A colleague has been using D clips inside Mt2 trunking and said it limits what you can get in a bit and struggled with 2 of 2.5 T and E apparently, to get the lid on.

 

[Echo the husky]

We've been using those D clips for a long while, not noticed any problems with them. No idea how they would stand up in a fire though, as the larger ones are rather flimsy.

 

[JohnW2]

In a fire I'd be more worried about the toxic smoke coming from dado trunking and the cables within than if it fell down the wall a bit. ...

So would I - but not if I was wearing 'breathing apparatus', and I'm being told that the trigger for this regulation was firefighters getting their breathing apparatus tangled with falling/fallen cables!

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

I'm being told that the trigger for this regulation was firefighters getting their breathing apparatus tangled with falling/fallen cables!

If you read the report i posted above you would know the trigger was actually two firefighters dying as a result of this. Afterwards many firefighters reported issues with cables that they previously didn't mention. You can see how many recommendations came out of it, including the one you seem so unconvinced by.

 

[JohnW2]

If you read the report i posted above you would know the trigger was actually two firefighters dying as a result of this. Afterwards many firefighters reported issues with cables that they previously didn't mention. You can see how many recommendations came out of it, including the one you seem so unconvinced by.

I did read the report.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see how it could be known that the entanglement with cables was the cause of, or even a major contribution to, the deaths of the two firefighters - the fact that they were found 'entangled with cables' does not, in itself, given any indication of the extent (if any) to which that contributed to their deaths. For example, it might well be that had they not already been dead or incapacitated for other reasons, they could quite easily have 'disentangled' themselves.

Do you know whether the "many firefighters [who] reported issues with cables that they previously didn't mention" indicated whether they had been able to deal fairly easily with those 'issues with cables' at the time or whether, perhaps, they had difficulty in overcoming those issues and therefore regarded the situation as 'life threatening'?

All I'm talking about is the desirability of evidence-based decisions being made, and 'knee jerk' ones avoided. As I said, if it could be shown (on the basis of evidence, rather than just 'association') that entanglement with fallen cables was near the top of the list of addressable causes of the deaths of firefighters (even if not many), I would fully support the view that addressing the issue was justifiably given a high priority. However, as you say, I'm not convinced that such was the case.

Basing conclusions and decisions on 'associations' without proof of a causative relationship is common and dangerous (and one of the most common 'abuses' of statistics).

Kind Regards, John
Edit: crucial typo corrected

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Surely it's basing conclusions and decisions on 'associations' without proof of a causative relationship which is problematic?

 

[JohnW2]

Damnit! - typo correct. Thanks.

 

[John D v2.0]

Ok but on small sample sizes it's hard to get statistical significance and it's also difficult to split test two populations. So certainly if we want rigorous proof to medical trial standards, we are out of luck.
However my opinion is that although we should aim to be scientific, in the absence of statistical proof, we should still use our intelligence to think through these uncertainties And draw partial conclusions. Maybe we are not 100% sure it will save enough lives, but it's not an unbelievable cost to do so. I always wonder, if you make a big decision, and you never know if it were the right choice, does it actually matter? I think not.
As an aside, there's also an element of maintaining confidence in the system. Ie you need to give visible evidence of having thought it through. But i wouldn't support changing the conclusion just for that reason.

Is the system flawed? Yes of course, it involves humans! And i don't doubt it could be better, just by replacing the existing humans with better ones! But i think perhaps that's where we differ in that i am happy to believe that humans can spot nuances that statistics can't, by carefully examining the specific situation, whereas you consider eliminating flaws and bias is a higher goal to aim for.