Amd 3 and plastic wall plugs

[mattylad]

In a fire I'd be more worried about the various gas and argon bottles that the welders have little care for, the big store of various bottles right by the loading bay doors etc.
So worried that I'd be watching from afar to see how big the explosion is, this particular exit is the one that lades me away from that bottle store.

(Yes I know argon is not flammable, but its still pressurized gas and the bottles can make nasty holes in walls etc.)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

"from afar" is quite important..

 

[JohnW2]

Ok but on small sample sizes it's hard to get statistical significance and it's also difficult to split test two populations. So certainly if we want rigorous proof to medical trial standards, we are out of luck. ... However my opinion is that although we should aim to be scientific, in the absence of statistical proof, we should still use our intelligence to think through these uncertainties And draw partial conclusions.

I totally agree. Although (when possible to obtain) statistically significant evidence is obviously desirable as the basis of decision making, I was not suggesting that anything like as rigorous as that would be appropriate (or possible) in the situation we are discussing.

As I keep saying, all I would hope is that, before deciding to take specific action one should use our "intelligence to think through these uncertainties And draw partial conclusions..." in order to form an opinion as to whether or not 'falling cables' represent an addressable hazard which is at or near to the top of the list of those hazards which may cause the deaths of firefighters. Those who made the decision may, of course, know a lot more than I do about the facts, but I remain unconvinced (not the least because of the possibility I suggested) that finding two dead firefighters 'entanged in cable', or hearing reports of 'issues with cables' from other firefighters (who may well have handled the 'issues' easily and with minimal risk, and did not consider the matter serious enough to report at the time), is enough to necessarily lead to an intelligent conclusion that this particular issue to needs to be given priority over all other issues for action.

[in passing, I don't think it's really so much the 'small sample size' which prevents a statistically-based decision. A more fundamental problem is that, except in very blatent situations, it's probably usually next-to-impossible to ever be sure to what extent entanglement with a cable contributed to a firefighter's death (even if there were a large 'sample size' of cases to consider]

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

I agree with your general point

this particular issue to needs to be given priority over all other issues for action.

I don't think it was. I think the priority was given to most of the other recommendations such as redesigning the BA sets and improving firefighter emergency procedures etc. The change to BS7671 has taken a while to come in, and hasn't been introducted in such a way to backdate it to existing installations. I would say they are hardly prioritising it at all, compared with a more extreme approach. For example, bonding must be sorted out before any electrical work is done.

A more fundamental problem is that, except in very blatent situations, it's probably usually next-to-impossible to ever be sure to what extent entanglement with a cable contributed to a firefighter's death

True, but based on this report, it is pretty blatant to me. Keeping someone in that environment for every extra second increases the risk of death. And having to disentangle yourself from cables would take extra seconds. Based on the experience of the first team and their injuries, the second team had little chance from the moment the cables fell on them. I'm not saying it's the only factor, it's a multi risk situation, and clearly many other factors could have saved them. In fact, if the cables dropped on them on the lower staircase maybe they wouldn't have even got onto the landing. and I'm not saying they definitely survived if there were no cables involved, but if I were forced to guess I'd go for 90% chance of survival without the cables.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We've been having fires in buildings with cables in them for many, many years.

Why only recently have there been a small number of incidents like this? (Note - yes, I am assuming that "they" have not been ignoring deaths and reports of near-misses for many, many years)

 

[JohnW2]

I don't think it was. I think the priority was given to most of the other recommendations such as redesigning the BA sets and improving firefighter emergency procedures etc. The change to BS7671 has taken a while to come in ... I would say they are hardly prioritising it at all ...

Maybe - but that report is only just over 5 years old, and one probably could not have got it into BS7671 any sooner than it did.

True, but based on this report, it is pretty blatant to me. Keeping someone in that environment for every extra second increases the risk of death. And having to disentangle yourself from cables would take extra seconds. Based on the experience of the first team and their injuries, the second team had little chance from the moment the cables fell on them.

Possibly, but that's really just speculation. As I said,. their failure to disentangle themselves could quite easily be the consequence, rather than the cause, of their injuries and deaths.

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

well you're right, and I'm speculating that I exist and the world is not an illusion, so it seems that we don't really have any common ground on which to resolve this debate.

 

[JohnW2]

well you're right, and I'm speculating that I exist and the world is not an illusion, so it seems that we don't really have any common ground on which to resolve this debate.

I haven't really got the time to pursue this at present, anyway (and, anyway, don't ythjink I have anything new to say). However, I think we're both being perfectly reasonable - we are both using our intelligence and the facts that are available to us to 'speculate'. It's simply that we differ in the 'judgements' we are making - which ios fine.

If anything, I think you are being more 'assertive' in your speculation than am I. I'm simply saying that I don't know whether or not the facts available to those making the decision were an adequate basis for what they decided, whereas you seem to be fairly sure that they were.

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

I didn't mean my last post to come across as short! but yes I think neither of us knows. we're not disagreeing due to a lack of shared understanding so I don't think we can move forward. aka agree to disagree!

 

[JohnW2]

I didn't mean my last post to come across as short! but yes I think neither of us knows. we're not disagreeing due to a lack of shared understanding so I don't think we can move forward. aka agree to disagree!

No problem. I didn't regard it as 'short'.

The main difference between us seems to be that you appear to have come down on (or, at least, are 'supporting') one side, whereas I'm just saying that (given what little facts I know) 'I just don't know' - which seems to me to be the fairer approach to take given the paucity of information. Of course, I don't have to make the decision.

Kind Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

We've been having fires in buildings with cables in them for many, many years.

Why only recently have there been a small number of incidents like this? (Note - yes, I am assuming that "they" have not been ignoring deaths and reports of near-misses for many, many years)

We do a lot of shopfitting and the amount of wires above the false ceilings has drastically increased, though not all mains, but data, alarms sensors, all sorts, whereas metal containment use has dwindled, i wonder if there constantly monitoring the situation and feel its now getting a bit out of hand.

Over the years I think we evolved to Lsf wiring due to the risk caused by high levels of pvc cable, then they seemed to ban unsupported cables due to the weight of all these extra cables, this led to basket and tray use increasing, i do believe the canary wharf project specked fireproof fixings for the supports back then.
Now we have the current Reg, I cant see there is much more they can do now.
Most of this potentially hazardous wiring, i feel, is because it was initially poorly installed, a lot of it just thrown in, or in sticky back trunking that is not up to the task

 

[SUNRAY]

I'm kinda getting lost in posts, is anybody saying they disagree with using fire resistant fixings?

The way I see it (and I apologise if I'm repeating a posted comment) is for the sake of making almost insignificant changes we can improve the safety for fire fighter and by default for all concerned.

It feels like people think this is a brand new idea, however I recall using galvanised wire in preference to plastic cable ties for this reason as far back as 2003 to fit cables on tray and shortly after stainless steel cable ties

 

[JohnW2]

I'm kinda getting lost in posts, is anybody saying they disagree with using fire resistant fixings? The way I see it (and I apologise if I'm repeating a posted comment) is for the sake of making almost insignificant changes we can improve the safety for fire fighter and by default for all concerned.

I suppose that is sort-of directed to me, since I probably appear to be on 'that side' of the discussion.

I have not said that I disagree with fire-resistant fixings for cables - indeed, I've questioned why we/they are concentrating on the fixings of electric cables, when any number of things which could harm firefighters (and 'all concerned', in the event of a fire) if they fell are attached by non-fire-resistant fixings.

However, what I have said is that I don't know whether there is enough evidence that this one 'little thing' amongst all the major hazards which firefighters face is actually particularly significant' in terms of that 'big picture', and hence whether addressing this issue deserved 'prioritisation' over other addressable issues.

It feels like people think this is a brand new idea, however I recall using galvanised wire in preference to plastic cable ties for this reason as far back as 2003 to fit cables on tray and shortly after stainless steel cable ties

Indeed. I used to be a great fan of galvanised 'buckle clips' for cables (for certain locations). However, they more-or-less vanished (are they re-appearing now?) and I assumed this was because of a concern that they could 'become live' if the cable they were supporting melted. Are there no such concerns relating to some of the 'metal cable fixings' we are now going to see appearing (after all, it's not practical to earth them all!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I wasn't particularly singling anyone out.

I suppose that is sort-of directed to me, since I probably appear to be on 'that side' of the discussion.


However, what I have said is that I don't know whether there is enough evidence that this one 'little thing' amongst all the major hazards which firefighters face is actually particularly significant' in terms of that 'big picture', and hence whether addressing this issue deserved 'prioritisation' over other addressable issues.
Kind Regards, John

Let's not get bogged down in too much detail or analysis, let's just accept there is an issue which we can easily help to alleviate. If it helps the fire fighters to execute their horrible jobs in one tiny way then I'm happy to say it's a JWD.

 

[JohnW2]

Let's not get bogged down in too much detail or analysis, let's just accept there is an issue which we can easily help to alleviate. If it helps the fire fighters to execute their horrible jobs in one tiny way then I'm happy to say it's a JWD.

I can understand that viewpoint, and largely agree with it. Since we're talking about a change which is of minimal consequence to electricians, they might as well make the change if there is any chance at all of it reducing injuries/deaths (even if 'just one'), particularly given that there are no obvious major downsides (unless, I suppose, a fireman or someone else gets electrocuted by a metal cable fixing) - even though it will presumably be decades before a high proportion of premises benefit from the regulation.

As I've been trying to explain, my concern is about the bigger picture and the fact that 'knee jerks' to particular events (when that happens) can sometimes distract from more important issues which people should be addressing.

Kind Regards, John