Amd 3 and plastic wall plugs

[SUNRAY]

As I've been trying to explain, my concern is about the bigger picture and the fact that 'knee jerks' to particular events (when that happens) can sometimes distract from more important issues which people should be addressing.

Kind Regards, John

OK I was reading it differently to that.
As to the other 'more dangerous' situations, yes I agree they need to be addressed and they are in one form or another as they arise, but there are so many out there it takes a long time to analyse and assess to avoid the kneejerk reaction introducing a different hazard. in fact I recently had a word with a garden centre about the way the empty Calor gas bottles were stored (in a different place to the cage) and children were using as a climbing frame and I reported the problem.
I don't see this particular situation as a kneejerk reaction as there is no major change to anything, in fact it's not even making any specific instruction as I see it.
I'd précis it as 'make arrangements to prevent cables dropping in the event of fire' and this could be as simple as banging a 6" nail in the wall under the trunking. OK I've over simplified the words but I hope the meaning comes over.

 

[JohnW2]

OK I was reading it differently to that. ... As to the other 'more dangerous' situations, yes I agree they need to be addressed and they are in one form or another as they arise ....

The potential problem there is the "as they arise", since that is the stuff that 'kneejerks' are made of.

... but there are so many out there it takes a long time to analyse and assess to avoid the kneejerk reaction introducing a different hazard.

Indeed. It's clearly possible for 'well-intentioned' changes to do more harm than good - or, at least, to simply substitute a different hazard for an existing one. I still believe that (if it hasn't already happened), it is probably only a matter of time before someone (probably someone 'silly', but nevertheless someone who would probably not otherwise have died) dies as a result of the increasing prevalence of earthed metal CUs in domestic premises.

I don't see this particular situation as a kneejerk reaction as there is no major change to anything, in fact it's not even making any specific instruction as I see it. I'd précis it as 'make arrangements to prevent cables dropping in the event of fire' and this could be as simple as banging a 6" nail in the wall under the trunking. OK I've over simplified the words but I hope the meaning comes over.

All true. However, just as " 'non-combustible' CUs" has been almost universally interpreted as meaning metal CUs, I strongly suspect that the reg we are discussing will be widely interpreted as meaning "no plastic cable clips/wall plugs etc.". Furthermore, as I wrote earlier, I would think it is pretty unusual to have cable which would 'fall down' even if all the explicit 'fixings' were to fail (for reasons I mentioned).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Don't have any surface mounted cables. Simples.

 

[John D v2.0]

Let's not get bogged down in too much detail or analysis, let's just accept there is an issue which we can easily help to alleviate

Agree, to take the situation to the extreme, we could spend a long time discussing and understanding and never actually do anything, by which time the issue may well have repeated. The time taken to analyse is in itself a danger to be mitigated.

Look at the Grenfell tower enquiry. On month 1 people were asking why no sprinklers and why did the fire brigade not evacuate. Also why is combustible cladding allowed. That would be a knee jerk in the situation.
However we are still part way through phase 1 and there has already been a recommendation to ban combustible cladding from tall building full stop, and to remove from existing. That doesn't seem knee jerk.
By the time phase 2 comes out it might be 2030 at this rate, so we have to be careful to balance timeliness against accuracy. One of the big requirements of the families is that it shouldn't drag on for years. But also to make sure it never happens again.

 

[boringoldcodger]

Deleted, as no longer relevant.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No - predictive text coupled with a failure to pay attention strikes again.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Isn't it lucky you never make mistakes!

 

[JohnW2]

Look at the Grenfell tower enquiry. On month 1 people were asking why no sprinklers and why did the fire brigade not evacuate. Also why is combustible cladding allowed. That would be a knee jerk in the situation. .... However we are still part way through phase 1 and there has already been a recommendation to ban combustible cladding from tall building full stop, and to remove from existing. That doesn't seem knee jerk. By the time phase 2 comes out it might be 2030 at this rate, so we have to be careful to balance timeliness against accuracy.

I think that moves the goalposts so far that it's really a totally different discussion.

In the case of the Grenfall disaster, there are plenty of indisputable facts - perhaps the most obvious being that the cladding (the same or similar which seemingly has been fairly widely used) did burn (with catastrophic consequences) having been ignited by what was seeming a fairly trivial initial fire, that there were no sprinklers, that occupants were not evacuated and (as has subsequently been discovered) fire fighters had not be adequately trained to deal with that sort of incident. Given that all those undisputed issues have potentially wide-ranging relevance, they are clearly things that need to be very carefully considered, and appropriately addressed, as soon as possible.

That is, to my mind, very different from a situation in which 'falling cables' may have been a factor contributing to the deaths of two firefighters in 2010 - with, as I am currently aware, no mention of any other cases, before or since, in which it was even thought that a death may have been (let alone definitely was) at least partially due to that cause. In this case there are really no 'facts' at all - other than that two firefighters died, and were found entangled in cables.

I really am very busy at the moment, so might well not be able to get much involved with any discussion which ensues, at least for the time being.

As a matter of interest, what are your views about the 'non-combustible CUs' issue?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Isn't it lucky you never make mistakes!

It would be were it the case.

 

[securespark]

Don't have any surface mounted cables. Simples.

Will not necessarily work.
Years ago, I attended a kitchen fire where there was a run of cable in the corner, between ceiling and wall. The cable was capped with PVC capping but the surface was very close to the surface of the plaster.

It appeared the skim coat had popped in the heat and the PVC had melted, leaving the cables hanging over the back door. Admittedly, it was not hanging very low, but I guess with a long run, potentially it could impede the exit.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It appeared the skim coat had popped in the heat and the PVC had melted, leaving the cables hanging over the back door.

At which point they were no longer buried cables.

Don't have any non-buried cables.

 

[SimonH2]

I used to be a great fan of galvanised 'buckle clips' for cables (for certain locations). However, they more-or-less vanished ...

Probably because nail-on plastic clips are a lot faster to fit - and "time's money". Compare "nail buckle to surface, hold up cable, thread end of strap through slot, fold everything tight and bend the end of the strap back to secure it all" with "hold clip in place over cable, bash in the nail".
On an unrelated point (ie not related to why they aren't used any more), you can generally pull a cable out from plastic clips but you can't with buckles. This makes future changes a lot harder when buckles have been generously used to fix all the cables along the joists.

 

[JohnW2]

Probably because nail-on plastic clips are a lot faster to fit - and "time's money". Compare "nail buckle to surface, hold up cable, thread end of strap through slot, fold everything tight and bend the end of the strap back to secure it all" with "hold clip in place over cable, bash in the nail". On an unrelated point (ie not related to why they aren't used any more), you can generally pull a cable out from plastic clips but you can't with buckles. This makes future changes a lot harder when buckles have been generously used to fix all the cables along the joists.

All true.

Do I take it that no-one thinks that what I thought might be the reason (that the buckle clips could conceivably become 'live') had anything to do with their 'vanishing'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This makes future changes a lot harder when buckles have been generously used to fix all the cables along the joists.

Try it when what's been used to fix rubber cables to joists are short pieces of rubber cable laid over at 90° and nailed down.

 

[sparkwright]

The LINIAN FIRE CLIP looks like the way forward for securing cables.

I think further development is needed though, a larger one to hold bunches of cables where usually concealed would be useful as far as speed of installation goes.

And maybe a small knock-in version and/or staple version would be useful too.