ATTENTION all ppl who put DIYERS off

[andy]

people come here to ask for help with problems. at times you are right to say get an electrician to change a CU etc, which i would agree on aswell, but most of the time you just try to put people off tryin it themselves. YOU WERE ALL IN THIS SITUATION BEFORE YOU KNEW EVERYTHING. i am capable of rewiring a house, including CU, an have learnt everything from experience FROM DIY. give people the change to learn themselves

 

[breezer]

3 things;

1 some people wish to attempt jobs that no diy person should

2 some people should not do any diy

3 some people take on jobs above their ability

 

[shaggy]

breezer:

some people should not do any diy

You're right there; do you know that 4,000 people die in accidents in the home every year in UK. People go on about carnage on the roads and speed kills but there are only 3,500 deaths on the roads so that's 500 pa less.
That means you're safer on the road than in your own home doesn't it?

 

[fubar]

people come here to ask for help with problems. at times you are right to say get an electrician to change a CU etc, which i would agree on aswell, but most of the time you just try to put people off tryin it themselves. YOU WERE ALL IN THIS SITUATION BEFORE YOU KNEW EVERYTHING. i am capable of rewiring a house, including CU, an have learnt everything from experience FROM DIY. give people the change to learn themselves

This is going to be a long post, please bear with me.

I do not believe this is the case. Most electricians are members of at least one professional organisation - part of the membership requirements (and part of simply behaving responsibly) is to give appropriate advice. Unfortunately a minority of DIYers (and a minority of posters on this forum) do not know what is within their abilities and what isn't. In particular, there are some that firmly believe that they are capable of undertaking work when they are not.

Point 1. DIY is a noble hobby and most DIYers take pleasure from learning how to undertake a particular task and then completing it in a methodical way with skill and attention to detail that would outclass any professional job.

I've seen consumer units with wires running perfectly parallel and neat gentle bends at every change of direction - beautiful pieces of art. Every screw exactly horizontal. I know the installation has been tested because the DIYer has proudly shown me their test equipment (in pristine condition), described the particular methods they used (in excruciating detail) and quizzed me on theoretical scenarios.

Point 2. Unfortunately, there are those that see DIY as a way to save money. Often they don't want to purchase expensive equipment, don't want to do a job the proper way or don't want to take time to understand the details of the task - they simply want to complete the task as quickly and cheaply as possible, even if that means dangerous, potentially dangerous or sub-standard work. Perhaps these people don't deserve the title DIYer or perhaps they give the hobby a bad name. Either way, to these people we all have a responsibility to point out the error of their ways - the Electricans on this board more than most. To urge caution, to attempt to educate, to refer them to the appropriate literature and to hope they take our advice. I agree that sometimes advice can be perceived as discouragement but I don't believe this is intentional.

Point 3. BS7671 requires that installation work be tested prior to being put into service. Any true DIYer is going to have access to electrical test equipment or not touch electrical work. Andrew2022, from your previous posts it is clear that you are a good DIYer and I know that you know to, and would have, tested your installation when changing your CU. You know the risks involved with, and the precautions required to, pull the service fuse - and that is fine for you as a DIYer because you are comfortable with this. But it isn't appropriate for most DIYers.

Similarly, most DIYers either already have all the knowledge, skills and tools required to add a socket to a ring final - or could be taught with ease. However, it is my firm belief that there are a minority of DIYers who will never meet any particular competency level and certainly not with the limited communication possible in a forum such as this. What is within ability for one individual may not be for another.

--
Michael

 

[securespark]

most of the time you just try to put people off

Yes, we do it for fun, we get kicks out of it. Not.

Ask yourself WHY we dissuade some DIY'ers?

I agree with Mike.

Often DIY is a cost-cutting exercise, and while people will go to reasonable lengths to make sure (eg) their decor is neat and tidy, their wiring is not. And neat and tidy may not be terribly important, I hear you say, but it is indicative of the level of care taken throughout the rest of the job.

Like a pub's toilets being indicative of the state of the cellar.

So often I have to compete against "me bruvver can do it forra tenner...."

People see the light on the ceiling, they push a switch, light comes on. MUST be OK, mustn't it? Many don't appreciate (or care) what happens in between, whether they have given thought to the right type and size of fuse/mcb, cable, accessory, etc.. and whether these have been installed to the correct standard.

Don't forget that the pro sparks here are duty-bound to give good, sound advice - and if that includes putting some off, then so be it.

 

[shaggy]

If I may refer to the 'old house' thread here
This guy obviously didn'y know much and 'ban-all-sheds' went out of his way to recommend some useful books. Look at the guy's response;

...I need to rewire only one my house and i can not learn all of it for one month.I assumed that i could asked here.But all i get is -read yourself and learn....

Andrew, don't you think that this guy should not attempt this work?

 

[Lectrician]

Diyers do undertake tasks they shouldnt - i bet all of us proffesionals could pick holes in the work of a diyer - we do it for 40hrs a week, a diyer will for 8 if he is lucky, experiance coupled with knowledge is what is needed.

Many jobs are fine for a diyer to undertake, but there ARE tasks that they shouldnt. Some will be more able than others to undertake greater tasks.

I am not affraid to ask for help if i need a wall building, or a radiator moving. I could do it on my own, i am sure, but the pro will make a neater job.

 

[pna]

How does one make a judgement as to what a DIYer is capable of?

Some words in a post? A lack of knowledge or poor english does not necessarily imply a lack of capability - if posters had the knowlege, they wouldn't post. To critisize harshly on this basis is uncalled for.

However I think it is fine to advise that xyz job is best left to a pro.

In my profession we also have to be aware of the possibilities of litigation, harm, consequential loss etc. steming from advice and all documents have a disclaimer.

 

[shaggy]

lectrician:

experiance is what it needs.

I'm not sure that is really true. Surely electric work requires a lot of knowledge but the ability to strip the insulation and secure a wire is easily learned. The important bit is what size wire and where it should go etc. Compare that to bricklaying or plastering where you can only be competent by getting practical experience of doing the job.
diy guys can be given advice on wiring on this forum and go away and do the job but you can't do that with other trades like bricklaying.
I think diy electricians may actually take more care because they are not doing it 40 hours per week. They know their work will come under greater scrutiny because they are not real sparkies.

 

[Lectrician]

lectrician:

experiance is what it needs.

I'm not sure that is really true. Surely electric work requires a lot of knowledge but the ability to strip the insulation and secure a wire is easily learned.

I have correct my error, you are of course correct

 

[phykell]

I've just recently posted a question about isolating my CU unit and it turns out that the earthing is suspect and as a result I've decided to call in a professional. While one of the posts in my thread was one of discouragement it turned out to be correct I think, but I believe if someone actively discourages someone asking for advice they should also tell them why a professional should be called out rather than just stating it as a fact. My thread is a case in point because the experts who contributed were very polite and effectively pushed me to the right conclusion with their recommendations. Having said that, I believe a DIYer can, with care and attention, work to a high standard. However, perhaps it is best to leave the safety critical sections to the professionals such as, coincidentally, earthing at the meter and fitting isolation units to the incoming mains, plus with the professional there, I get to extract as much info about how to do the rest of the work myself

Having said all that, the reason we often have to DIY is cost and availability of professionals and whether they'll even turn up...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

3 things;

1 some people wish to attempt jobs that no diy person should

I maintain that within the context of a domestic installation, there are no jobs that are per se ones that a DIY-er should not do. Yes there are some that require more knowledge than many DIY-ers have, and there are some DIY-ers who are so clueless that they'd never be able to acquire the knowledge and skills needed, in the same way that I expect some people drop out of 2360 courses because they can't hack it. But I can't think of any domestic stuff that is necessarily outside the scope of any DIY-er.

2 some people should not do any diy

You're not wrong there.

3 some people take on jobs above their ability

Or there. And what're worse are the people who, having asked, won't accept being advised that a particular job is above their ability.

Point 1. DIY is a noble hobby and most DIYers take pleasure from learning how to undertake a particular task and then completing it in a methodical way with skill and attention to detail that would outclass any professional job.

Undeniably true - looking beyond electrics for example, if you think about the time it takes to properly prepare an old painted surface for repainting, particularly if it has awkward contours, like windows, to pay someone a going rate to do that would make it ruinously expensive. I DIY for a number of reasons; interest, satisfaction, convenience, cost and yes, in some cases, quality of results.

Point 2. Unfortunately, there are those that see DIY as a way to save money. Often they don't want to purchase expensive equipment, don't want to do a job the proper way or don't want to take time to understand the details of the task - they simply want to complete the task as quickly and cheaply as possible, even if that means dangerous, potentially dangerous or sub-standard work. Perhaps these people don't deserve the title DIYer or perhaps they give the hobby a bad name. Either way, to these people we all have a responsibility to point out the error of their ways - the Electricans on this board more than most. To urge caution, to attempt to educate, to refer them to the appropriate literature and to hope they take our advice. I agree that sometimes advice can be perceived as discouragement but I don't believe this is intentional.

I agree entirely. As I said above, I don't think that there are any jobs that are flat-out unsuitable for DIY-ing, but as a DIY-er myself I know full well that there are many jobs that require more knowledge than some of the posters patently have. It is difficult sometimes to get across the point that yes, you can rewire your house, but you can't do it this weekend, or even next month, or possibly even this year, because of all of the things that you don't yet know, and more importantly, all of the things that you don't even realise you don't know. It often comes appears condescending, and I admit that I sometimes (often? ) don't try hard enough to stress that I'm not being condescending.

Point 3. Similarly, most DIYers either already have all the knowledge, skills and tools required to add a socket to a ring final - or could be taught with ease. However, it is my firm belief that there are a minority of DIYers who will never meet any particular competency level and certainly not with the limited communication possible in a forum such as this. What is within ability for one individual may not be for another.

I'm sure that a lot of the horror stories of bodged DIY work arise not because the perpetrator didn't care, or was intrinsically incompetent, but simply because they just didn't know that you shouldn't put all those sockets on a spur, or borrow a neutral for a light or whatever. In many ways the clueless who come here end up safer then the class of person you mention - someone who already has the knowledge, skills and tools required to add a socket to a ring final, and thinks that therefore they have the knowledge, skills and tools required to rewire a house, run a cable out to their shed and install a new CU.

How does one make a judgement as to what a DIYer is capable of?

The $64,000 question. It isn't easy, and I, and I'm sure the others, get it wrong both ways sometimes.

Some words in a post? A lack of knowledge or poor english does not necessarily imply a lack of capability - if posters had the knowlege, they wouldn't post. To critisize harshly on this basis is uncalled for.

I don't always succeed, but I do try not to criticise people on the basis of the words they use, however I think it is reasonable to take the gross misuse of technical terms as a good indication of people's knowledge. Not their potential ability, but where they are right now. For example people who worry that a 3kW oven on a 40A circuit might somehow be damaged by being given too much electricity. In the recent brouhaha with Roman, it was obvious that English was not his native tongue (but he's far better at it than I am at any foreign language) - what got me going was his refusal to accept that there were things he needed to learn, and that you could not rewire a house on the basis of "insert knob A into hole B" type instructions.

However I think it is fine to advise that xyz job is best left to a pro.

Which jobs, and how and when do you think that should be the advice?

In my profession we also have to be aware of the possibilities of litigation, harm, consequential loss etc. steming from advice and all documents have a disclaimer.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next year...

Surely electric work requires a lot of knowledge but the ability to strip the insulation and secure a wire is easily learned. The important bit is what size wire and where it should go etc.

There are other very important things. What do you about a DIY-er who can strip wires, and even knows that the capacity of 6mm² cable is 47A, but has never heard of installation methods, voltage drop, grouping factors etc, and thinks that therefore it must always be OK for a 10.5kW shower. Or who has never heard of TT, TN-S etc, and therefore has absolutely no idea how that affects a choice of CU.

I think diy electricians may actually take more care because they are not doing it 40 hours per week. They know their work will come under greater scrutiny because they are not real sparkies.

Those who care will care. Those who know that their work will never be scrutinised, as there is no framework for doing so, will carry on in blissful ignorance of all their mistakes.

I've always thought that the government missed a trick with Part P. I really do believe that the vast majority of poor DIY electrical work arises out of well-meaning ignorance, and this state will hardly, if at all, be remedied by telling people that they are no longer allowed to do it. It is fascinating to see the emergence of some fairly short training courses aimed at getting kitchen fitters and pl**bers up to spec for domestic installation work, and there was, and still is, no reason why this scheme could not be extended to householders. Indeed, if it wasn't for the fact that NICEIC would require me to offer a guarantee to myself, and to have liability insurance for risks to myself, and to buy all the bl**dy books again from them, I'd seriously consider it.

I've just recently posted a question about isolating my CU unit and it turns out that the earthing is suspect and as a result I've decided to call in a professional. While one of the posts in my thread was one of discouragement it turned out to be correct I think, but I believe if someone actively discourages someone asking for advice they should also tell them why a professional should be called out rather than just stating it as a fact.

True.

My thread is a case in point because the experts who contributed were very polite and effectively pushed me to the right conclusion with their recommendations. Having said that, I believe a DIYer can, with care and attention, work to a high standard.

I'd have to agree with that, wouldn't I!

However, perhaps it is best to leave the safety critical sections to the professionals such as, coincidentally, earthing at the meter and fitting isolation units to the incoming mains, plus with the professional there, I get to extract as much info about how to do the rest of the work myself

Smart move. You probably could have done it all yourself, but given the state it was in, I think you were wise to go for the faster option of getting in a pro. Was he happy to give you advice on other matters, or was it like pulling teeth?

 

[phykell]

Smart move. You probably could have done it all yourself, but given the state it was in, I think you were wise to go for the faster option of getting in a pro. Was he happy to give you advice on other matters, or was it like pulling teeth?

Hey he's a tradesman, he's unavailble for two weeks minimum! He's coming to do the job a week next Monday. Ha! Wait until he sees the wiring in my kitchen (not my work of course).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do report back.

Meanwhile, careful with that earth, Eugene....

 

[shaggy]

Good post b-a-s(the long one)