So when/how does all this notification/part P stuff matter?

[LiamPope]

The regulars on here all know the rules, and are forever telling people to make sure they notify notifiable work, get the certs etc, or 'they may get into trouble at house selling time'. I'm sure plenty of people ignore that advice. Also, I imagine a great many people outside of this forum have no idea at all about Part P etc and go right ahead and do notifiable work blissfully unaware.

This doesn't really apply to myself - I'm doing a full rewire under a building notice and wont be selling for 5-10 (who knows?) years anyway, but nevertheless I'm curious as to under what circumstances, and to what extent people who don't play by the rules (knowingly or unknowingly) get found out and come to grief. I've never heard any stories/anecdotes on here or anywhere else.

Of course accidents/injury and subsequent investigations could bring this all out in the wash, but lets assume this doesn't occur. Are you guaranteed to be found out at house selling time? Sure, if you do a DIY rewire without certs/notification then use that as a selling point on the property, it'll come out. But what about Mr Smith who changed his bathroom lighting and didn't notify? Is it really ever going to be detected? When I bought my property it didn't come under the criteria for needing a HIP, so we had the more-thorough-than-the-basic-survey Homebuyer's Survey carried out. All that was mentioned re the electrics was that it was (paraphrasing) 'of mixed age and should be tested by a qualified electrician'. Is a HIP more thorough and guaranteed to find off-the-books electrical work? I guess presently, a quick look for a mix of old and new wiring colours could lead to questions being asked, but that will be much less an indication of recent work having been carried out as time goes by.

And having said it doesn't apply to me, actually, what about my situation? In a few months I'll have a completion certificate saying I've carried out a full rewire of the property (among other things) and it's all pukka. I'm comming round to thinking that if I was so inclined, this could be my ticket to carrying out any notifiable work I wish on this property in the future without notifying. If, for example, I want to add a new socket in my kitchen in the future, or even add a new circuit, and I think to myself 'I'll be bu**ered if I'm paying LABC 200 quid for the privilege (and more to have a spark test it, as I have one of the naughty LABCs who won't do it themselves), how could I possibly not get away with it? It could all have been done with the rewire, right (unless they change the wire colours again!)?

Anyway - just curious really. Anybody have any experience/stories of how these sorts of situations pan out? Cheers,

Liam

 

[AndrewDavie]

Your certificate should have more information than just "rewire". It may well say how many sockets and what type of light fittings, so any changes to that might be able to be traced, depending on how many owners have gone by.

But yes, it's probably only after an investigation that anyone would be held accountable. And that's the big thing. If it's been done by a registered electrician, then damage will be covered by insurance and if the electrician has followed the BS7671, he would have a very stong case for not being held to blame.
This would not be the case for a cowboy or a DIYer.

 

[ericmark]

In the letter from my MP this morning he tells me the whole price structure is under review as if you were to change a thermostat from a thermostat/timer under Part P this is notifiable as it is a change to heating system. It involves two wires only and is no different in what is done and checked to changing a thermostat like for like which does not come under Part P. It seems the councils are to be given a bigger latitude as to their charges these were set for all building work and it does not really relate to Part P where a whole house (small) could be re-wired under £2000 which is the start point for price for charging at in Wales £100 plus VAT.
All cases I have seen of prosecution under Part P has been accompanied with sub standard workmanship. Or claiming to be Part P registered when not.
Since one can replace anywhere in the house like for like without Part P assuming the work is up to standard it would be hard to show one had done Part P work with the exception of a consumer unit change which since you would upgrade would not be like for like.
The daft thing is a periodic inspection report is not registered under Part P so unless the house is completely re-wired the council will have no record of what was in the house.
So consider the scenario of a cable with new colours feeding a socket. New colours and a minor works certificate showing test results with note saying replaced damaged cable after being drilled through during DIY work. There is no way anyone could prove the original socket was fitted before or after 2004 except in a new house. And even with a new house often a asbuilt circuit diagram is not provided only a general one for that style of house.
But normally the DIY person can’t fill in the installation, PIR, or minor works forms as they don’t have the ability or tools. And post event to get the minor works forms to cover where new cables have been fitted from an electrician would be hard to arrange. And any PIR would likely show loads of faults not just because the work has been done wrong but the regulations will have likely changed.
There are very few re-wire jobs I have seen done DIY which would pass all the regulations. And normally there is something which to the trained eye sticks out like a sore thumb.
My father’s house has had Part P for every bit of work done. But when he dies I would be lucky to find it all. In theory the local council should hold copies but I would not want to hold my breath while they are produced. The same applies to Gas Safe certificates.
And the different instruction sheets on Part P do not match each other and it is hard to tie down exactly what is required.
Building Regs and Part P have small variations and both are published on the www.planningportal.gov.uk web site and it has caused many arguments on here as to what is covered by Part P. And until they get their act into gear I think it would be hard to prove what is the limit as to what can be done.
For example if I have a 7.5Kw shower can I replace it without Part P if.
a) Exactly same make and model of old shower?
b) Is the manufactures recommended replacement for the old discontinued shower?
c) It is same wattage as old shower?
d) It will work without having to change breaker even if a little bigger than old one.
e) It will not require a cable upgrade only the MCB will need changing.
I would assume only a) and b) would comply and not even sure on b) but any DIY man reading the documents provided would have a hard job working out what like for like means. I am sure in a Kitchen if you replaced a unmarked 13A socket with a MK 13A socket this would be OK. So if I were not an electrician I could see how reading the document one could think changing a 7.5Kw shower for a 9.5Kw shower is like for like. But electricians would know you can’t do this. In same way as changing a cooker one would assume this is changing like for like but since it is very likely a different rating it is not really.

My father has just had in his kitchen a new central heating boiler which is fixed to the wall. The plumber has fitted a plug so it can be used until the electrician arrives on Monday. I felt like asking for the Part P certificate as since it is fixed to the wall it will need Part P. If I had my dad may have had a weekend without heat and so I said nothing but how many plumbers do fit plugs to boilers? Unless running he can’t commission and since he has and filled in gas safe paperwork and the electricians Part P will have a date 3 days later it is easy to prove.

 

[LiamPope]

Yep it's certainly a minefield of red tape ripe for misinterpretation/exploitation by local authorities and consumers alike, with very little consistency and anything at all that makes much sense. Great eh?

Your certificate should have more information than just "rewire". It may well say how many sockets and what type of light fittings, so any changes to that might be able to be traced, depending on how many owners have gone by.

Dunno - never seen a completion cert before, so we'll see! Given my LABC's attitude so far, I rather doubt it'll go to the lengths of a schedule of circuits, or even a socket count as you suggest. I really did put not a lot more than 'rewire' on my building notice - something like 'Installation of new CU plus rewiring of circuits' if I recall. That's all they wanted. I had my first fix inspection the other week (my LABC will inspect but not test!) and from the brevity of it and the guy's mumbling to himself, it consisted of nothing more than checking wiring was in safe zones. He didn't even want to see in the loft where all the lighting circuit wiring and some routing of most of the other circuits is. I was expecting him to ask for a schedule of circuits, calcs etc etc. I really feel I'm getting value for the money I paid in fees!

The way they want to play it is they inspect again on completion and I get a spark to do a PIR. So I'll have a completion cert, with whatever info will be on that, and somewhere buried at the council offices will be a PIR which will reveal details of the circuits. Whether or not a conveyancing solicitor will ever get to see the PIR, I dunno?

Ah well,

Liam

 

[jason1958]

> This would not be the case for a cowboy or a DIYer.

Insurance nearly always DOES covers DIY work.
Eg, removing a door lintel and dropping the wall on your feet.

Insurance nearly always does NOT cover professional structural work.
Eg, builder digs too long a trench next to strip foundation wall, wall collapses into trench, if the builder has no insurance then you must pay for rebuilding costs which can exceed purchase cost. Insurance exclusion.

Worst policies tend to be those sold with mortgages.



What will happen if a DIYer does muck up a CU change or rewire?
Most DIYers do not change a CU as unable to isolate or get RCD back up. Most DIYers do not rewire because if anything goes wrong it requires redecoration which costs a lot more and ego soon runs up against limited knowledge. DIYers tend to extend a f.c. and perhaps add a shed f.c. The cowboy DIYers and cowboy "sparks" will still ignore BS7671 never mind Part P SI2006.

However suppose a DIYer did a rewire and there is a transgression from BS7671, cable grouping is a good one or sizing re shower. Well at house sale the following WILL happen - forget insuring against "no certificate", the buyer will get an electrical inspection and an obvious screwup will result in offer reduced by cost of rewire AND potentially reduced by the cost of complete redecoration.

So it screws cowboy DIYers AND consumers employing cowboys.



What can you do about lots of nit-picking notification faults over time?
If competent, fix them & apply for regularisation later when sufficient in number. An example would be "grey areas" such as knackered dimmer in a kitchen gets changed to a plain switch. PIR is the preferred method of regularisation by the district surveyors guidance - and not incidentally for a Part P notification (however the documents do permit some discretion).



What can a local authority do about transgression of BR etc?
It can require the correction of wiring to BS7671 / named standard / unsafe works. LABC can serve a section 36 enforcement notice within 12 months of date of completion of works. LABC (or any other person) can STILL apply for an injunction for the same purpose (Cottingham v Attey Bower & Jones).

They are most likely to do this in conjunction with trading standards to catch cowboys - because that still remains the real problem in the UK. Cowboys claiming to be members of a certifying body when not & not notifying, cowboys simply not complying with BS7671 (code 1 & code 2s). Worse however are developers, which to be honest are too often just ticked off by BCO regardless. Some spectacular screwups in London for example which LABC & BCO can legally walk away from.


What can a DNO do about transgression?
It can force a disconnect or refuse to reconnect under ESQW.
Realise a disconnect can require an installation be brought up to BS7671, however a legal challenge saw a DNO back down on this and simply require "safe PIR" with electrician present. Quite rightly there was nothing wrong with the 15th regs installation and the DNO did not want a legal case for cost of rewiring, redecoration, hotel expenses, stress & anxiety. Conversely realise a DIY-mess installation will simply get a fuse removal and call us back when a sparks fixed it.



What happens if a spark ignores BS7671?
Not much because BS7671 is not a legal requirement. For all BR Schedule 1 shall not require anything to be done except for the purpose of securing reasonable standards of health and safety for persons in or about buildings (and any others who may be affected by buildings, or matters connected with buildings). Part P P1 reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

This is unfortunate as it gives a loophole cowboys can use, but usually caught as not members of a certifying body and thus failed to notify. Finding "errors" under BS7671 merely adds weight.



What is the guidance to CPS, DSA, TS?
Compliance or non-compliance with approved documents (1) A failure on the part of a person to comply with an approved document does not of itself render him liable to any civil or criminal proceedings; but if, in any proceedings whether civil or criminal, it is alleged that a person has at any time contravened a provision of building regulations (a)a failure to comply with a document that at that time was approved for the purposes of that provision may be relied upon
as tending to establish liability, and (b)proof of compliance with such a document may be relied on as tending to negative liability.

That is to say, if an industrial C&G 2382 2392 spark does everything to BS7671, with calibrated tools then not much can be done. "Proof of compliance with such a document may be relied on as tending to negative liability". Of course such documents *require* notification and regularisation or distress change involves time limits, but only a fool is going to go after an industrial spark resolving an unsafe situation in his own home. The reason being that Part P1 is the overriding requirement (CPS is not going to bring a case knowing full well that case law is stuffed full against them). Conversely a cowboy can finally be strung up like one.

Where LABC will have a fit is utter contempt for BR PP etc and *rightly so*. Thankfully I am happy to say that has actually been happening re wiring regs, it used to be just PP and occasionally BR (w.r.t. fire), but it is stopping people buying "nasties".



Why SI2004 is not the law even through "self appointed police sparks".
I had heard reports of DIYers being intimidated by domestic sparks in wholesalers that SI2004 is the law. I myself experienced an extremely unpleasant scene at a N&E counter by a very enraged spark in a blue van about "SI2004 is the law and no-one can touch anything anymore", later trying intimidation on the road (brake & lane weave). N&E staff repeatedly had to correct him whilst he raged. I ignored it, but recently he was found yelling over a fence of a neighbour at a light & cable first fitted in 1988 that had been replaced.

The original light had been changed several times culminating in TLC 18W PL (L) Orbit purchased in Yr2000, cable replaced probably once in that time with H05RNF. The Orbit light suffered water ingress due to thermal cycling and perforated guttering in Jul 2004, with guttering replaced the light left in place pending replacement. Recently the Orbit light was replaced by an IP65 18W PL (L) unit w/ white FP200G cable (UV), same route, now sleeved through the wall to exit the bottom of a galv besa box. His yelling appeared to be a frantic screaming & arm waving "that is all wrong, and you can't do anything anymore". My qualifications actually exceed his except for certifying body membership, both re C&G, 1st 2nd degree and postgrad qualifications at Lough, Not & Imp. The work fully complies with BS7671 17th (and did at first install), works are non-notifiable under SI2006, electrical tests fine on calibrated equipment whilst strictly not needed.

Most domestic sparks in this area ended up in domestic having been sacked from industry for violent criminal records, falsifaction of test results by tampering with equipment to inflate work & undertaking work not agreed by CoW, disabling electrical systems permitting theft of valves Ineos. Showing people SI2004 documents is highly remunerative, but is fraudulent under contract law.

White goods delivery staff trained to SI2004 have been found to cut plugs off, remove fuses & remove wiring accessories. Classic being there must be an isolator above a kitchen worktop for a washing machine. Not according to BR unless the appliances is built-in. Chargeback of retailer for delivering appliance without a plug and T/S left bemused at WTF is going on.

For me it is immaterial, for business use I do not use sparkin wholesalers and if I needed anything I can simply disintermediate out the UK since nothing is made here anyway (despite the labelling on packets). However with this approach I hope those trade account credit lines remain serviced, otherwise wholesalers are going to need more than takeovers.

Bizarre, but often ugly, world. Now, do I like cool white or sodium warm... wonder how many people we can regulate to change a light bulb. Could get expensive w.r.t. MPs expenses. How many people does it take to change a government, now that is a more interesting problem...

 

[AndrewDavie]

>
Bizarre, but often ugly, world. Now, do I like cool white or sodium warm... wonder how many people we can regulate to change a light bulb. Could get expensive w.r.t. MPs expenses. How many people does it take to change a government, now that is a more interesting problem...

I think the joke goes :
Q: "How many lightbulbs does it take to change a President?"
A: "Just one. ...One petrol filled lightbulb."
(Not quite sure how to describe it's colour)

 

[jason1958]

Heh, unfortunately Obama is a figurehead for bankers.

20yrs from now globalisation is going to look like a mistake too big & too fast. It is pushing too many people to the shadows of economic survival, pushing them to play the moral exchange rate. I also wonder if we may see protectionism, which we do already, but on a national scale. That is not going to work either.

Asia economies "talent" is actually their exchange rate and avoiding domestic consumption - growth is by substitution of other economies (transfer) rather than global economic growth. Exchange rate advantage starved the West of investment despite vast credit, and instead merely split the world into a debt v invest paradox that can't continue indefinately. Unfortunately thus far leaders have no solution or alternative. Absolute Maynard Keynes is not a solution, it is why they couldn't see the problem coming in the first place, nor will it prevent the same again.