Awful CH trouble.

[Sea Chief]

Sorry but Vaillant are the experts they have attended and worked on the unit, you can only keep up dialogue with them, I dont see how you expect someone on here who has never worked on your unit to know more than Vaillant do

But they have prooved they do know more! (in 24 hrs!). Not one Vaillant person, 3 tech dept phone guys, customer care dept, 6 engineers on 11 visits, inc the head uk engineer in a suit here.. has once said the words 'frost protection' in 6 months. I twice threw the idea out to them, but i got shaking of heads "no not frost protection, it would say that on one of the screens". You see?

I get a slew of different ideas of what it might be, from all of these guys, but not 'frost protection'. Then the unit gives me clues, on its screens at the very time of these periods, but not ever 'frost protection'.

Frost protection: some kind person on here has spotted the 4*c fig, which being close to 3.5*c i know it trips on at, my only clue to what it is actually doing...... is now the likely suspect (after months of detective work by Vaillant & me). Kudos to diynot. But its only a possible. I have to go with this possibility or i cannot progress, &, it seems increasingly sensible to do so.

So I've finally finally found what it is doing (lets just say). Right!! onto step 2 itching to continue. But im stuck here. You see I've got to get to step 4, making it stop.
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The core reason Im here, is because Vaillant have been 100% hopeless on this. They tell me its not frost protection, & dont know what its doing, then blindly throw answers at it 'we have new boards to fit', which do nothing. Replaced pump, does nothing. Sending guys time after time tinkering with settings saying "that'll be it" driving off, doing nothing. Get me to plough thru settings call after call try this try that, weeks of it.. doing nothing. They've no clue. Too new a system? Not thorough enough training? Seems to me.

If they never themselves mentioned 'frost protection' once (incredulously)...... by all accounts then, they were never ever ever ever on the correct page to remedy it, none knowing what the problem is!
----

Therefore, I come here in desperation to ask: 1) what it might be doing in your opinion (DONE, well most likely done that is: a massive achievement 6 months trying... so Im itching to go on!) because Vaillant cannot establish what, & now giving up i can tell, & installers given up on what it is doing long ago.

2) maybe explore ideas on how to tweak settings, or, diy entertain a plan to fix it (tantalisngly hinted at but Im left teetering on a cliff hoping someone might help a little more)..

Or 3) offer help with ideas in trying to tackle this company as i have no experience (citizens advice? Any opinions? Solicitors? It's my last resort): Trading Standards was mentioned, appreciated, looking into it.

So my plan of attack is try 1 first, then 2.

Thx. SC.

 

[Razor900]

I asked you if it did it at exactly the same time every night and whether you'd tried turning the cold feed off to the cylinder overnight and you didn't answer because you went down the frost protection rabbit hole.

If it was mine and playing up like this I would stay up and record exactly what it was doing. You don't seem sure about anything

If it does it the exact same time every night it can't be frost protection can it? It would have to be a programmer or software issue and the next logical step would be to change the time on the unit by 12 hours and see if the problem then occurs in the afternoon in which case you'll be able to recreate it for the Vaillant engineers

 

[kidgreen61]

If this were mine, I'd turn the fecker off before I went to bed.
Solved.

 

[Sea Chief]

If this were mine, I'd turn the fecker off before I went to bed.
Solved.

This is what im doing. But it is not solving anything if it means i have no heating until 10 am ( if i put it on when i wake 8 am or so). Im out the door 8.30 so no point putting on. So its an infuriating waste of money. Plus The switch is very hard to get at, and turning it off is not good for it around freezing temp, so Im potentially being forced to damage it just to be able to sleep.

Its equivalent to buying a car to go to work, you can drive back ok, but you cant drive to work it just wont be able to.. and the company inept at diagnosing why its not working, gone in for 11 grg visits in 6 months. Solved? No the complete opposite, its not working & unfit for purpose, purely on the fact alone having to spend out on another car to get to work let alone the incompetency of the mfr to determine whats wrong with it.

 

[Sea Chief]

I asked you if it did it at exactly the same time every night and whether you'd tried turning the cold feed off to the cylinder overnight and you didn't answer because you went down the frost protection rabbit hole.

If it was mine and playing up like this I would stay up and record exactly what it was doing. You don't seem sure about anything

If it does it the exact same time every night it can't be frost protection can it? It would have to be a programmer or software issue and the next logical step would be to change the time on the unit by 12 hours and see if the problem then occurs in the afternoon in which case you'll be able to recreate it for the Vaillant engineers

Razor, thanks for reply. I did state that I know it to occur when jt hits a temp threshold. I was clear as i could be about this from the start. When the temp drops below 3.5*c, so no not every night. But when a cold patch happens. When you need heat. You are forced to turn it off when you most need it

I have been up countless nights, recorded it many times, three different enginneers viewed it on my ipad (I said im unable to upload to here alas) who all concluded " pump.. shouldnt be coming on overnight". This again Ive made clear.

So the conclusion has been formulated that is even though doesnt say as such on a screen, even with Vaillant saying it isnt, that it - is - and can only be frost protection. Theres no other logical reason, ive entertianed this idea myself & thrown put it to Vaillant, who say no it isnt. But it must be.

Ive also said as it only occurs overnight, bc the temp invariably reaches 3.5* c overnight only, it means it can never be replicated for an engineer here during the day. I can only record it, show it, i did this, it was apparantly not deemed to be frost protection. And xyz hardware changes, software, settings changes, implemented. But it remains exactly the same.

 

[mrrusty]

Let's go right back to the beginning. I suspect the machine is working exactly as it is intended to, so the issue is the noise. You have a shoebox sized box presumably mounted on the floor. Is it a suspended timber floor? If so you may just have a rather good soundbox. A guitar is almost silent without a soundbox (think acoustic v electric). So maybe you just need to re-mount that box so the vibrations are not amplified. Without knowing what the mounting arrangement is, it's impossible to suggest solutions but e.g. mounting off a stone/brick wall perhaps, rather than on a suspended timber floor? if that is possible? Antivibration mounts?

 

[bernardgreen]

When you need heat. You are forced to turn it off when you most need it

This is the down side of Air Sourced Heat Pumps. If there is any risk of the outside unit icing up then they need to maintain a store of heat that can if necessary be used to de-ice / thaw out the outside unit.

If the system is installed in building that was designed to use an Air Sourced Heat Pump system then that store is often the concrete floor slab or other mass of heat retaining material. If on the other hand the Air Sourced Heat Pump system has been retro-fitted to an existing building that was designed and built for conventional heating then the thaw store has to be added to the building. Most convenient but not most user friendly form of thaw store is a volume of water that can be cooled down to supply heat to the outdoor unit.

An alternative to the thaw store is to have electric heaters to thaw / de-ice the outdoor unit.

 

[Sea Chief]

This is the down side of Air Sourced Heat Pumps. If there is any risk of the outside unit icing up then they need to maintain a store of heat that can if necessary be used to de-ice / thaw out the outside unit.

If the system is installed in building that was designed to use an Air Sourced Heat Pump system then that store is often the concrete floor slab or other mass of heat retaining material. If on the other hand the Air Sourced Heat Pump system has been retro-fitted to an existing building that was designed and built for conventional heating then the thaw store has to be added to the building. Most convenient but not most user friendly form of thaw store is a volume of water that can be cooled down to supply heat to the outdoor unit.

An alternative to the thaw store is to have electric heaters to thaw / de-ice the outdoor unit.

Hi Bernard, thanks for that. Ok it gives me more of a picture about the design, & enhances my pov that turning it off is defo not a good idea (so of use as a point to put to Vaillant to enforce the fact that what im forced to do, to turn it off, just to sleep, is unnacceptable both to me plus for the system itself too). But even with your idea, i cannot see adding electric heaters will stop the outside sensor registering 4*c innitiating the indoor units pump to engage. Itll still do it.

If of course these innitiations are frost protection at all. Its still not conclusive.

Maybe someone could second this opinion that this - must- be frost protection, as @MeldrewsMate established, it just has to be doing. If I could just get a consensus of opinion YES IT MUST BE, then im more confident this has to be a fact & can put this back in Vaillant's court, demand to know why they seem to disagree, why these ridiculous attempt fixes been made, why i was told incorrect info etc etc. Once/ if they agree it has to be frost protection too.. maybe then a route to getting it changed/ sorted/ shifted/ temp number changed/ anything at all just to stop it doing it overnight can emerge.

So in meantime im back to my 3 points. You see I have a Vaillant engineer here in 2 hours. Unrelated issue. I wanted to get some ideas to put to him, maybe a settings plan to put to him, maybe he could try himself.. being far better than me messing up something later alone, likely as its hugely complicated.

thx SC

 

[bernardgreen]

i cannot see adding electric heaters will stop the outside sensor registering 4*c innitiating the indoor units pump to engage. Itll still do it.

The de-icing should not be controlled only by absolute outside temperature, If the air passing through the outside unit is dry then some heat can still be collected without the unit icing-up even when the air is well below 0°C.

The reversed pump mode ( pumping heat from house to outside unit ) to provide de-icing heat should only happen when the outside unit is iced-up. There are ways to detect icing, reduced airflow, lack of temperature difference between flow and return to and from outdoor unit are but two methods. Measuring the weight of the outside unit would be another way to detect build up of ice.

 

[denso13]

If I could just get a consensus of opinion YES IT MUST BE

Unfortunately there is no way anyone on here can tell what it absolutely must be. As suggested, Trading Standards can probably give you some initial advice on taking things further.

 

[Sea Chief]

The de-icing should not be controlled only by absolute outside temperature, If the air passing through the outside unit is dry then some heat can still be collected without the unit icing-up even when the air is well below 0°C.

The reversed pump mode ( pumping heat from house to outside unit ) to provide de-icing heat should only happen when the outside unit is iced-up. There are ways to detect icing, reduced airflow, lack of temperature difference between flow and return to and from outdoor unit are but two methods. Measuring the weight of the outside unit would be another way to detect build up of ice.

This all is logical, understood. So are you suggesting then, that the innitiation threshold point is set far too high perhaps? Most nights its been doing this incessant cycle thing, the night temp has been around the 3* c mark, no ice whatsoever, just a nippy night. It is without any question that it happens when outside temp hits between 3 and 4 degrees. This is 100% certain fact.

Do you concur with meldrewsmate, that it must/ is hugely likely therefore to be a frost protection mode i am experiencing overnight? Ive given as detailed an example I can of when it happens, what temp sets jt off, what it actually appears to do in noise terms, what my settings are when it does it, what the screen says when it does it.

If I could just get someone to concur, the more the better, i can inch twds concluding it is a frost protection mode. But right now, Im effectively taking one person's word saying it is.. over dept after dept, person after person, at Vaillant saying it is not. Its hard to jump on board definitively, logic sort of prevents me just by numbers: jump in with 1 who says it is, vs 20 who say it isn't who are the manufacturers and engineers of it.

 

[Sea Chief]

Unfortunately there is no way anyone on here can tell what it absolutely must be. As suggested, Trading Standards can probably give you some initial advice on taking things further.

No, not absolutely I agree. I am not looking fir absolute answers. But it can be discussed, so i can get as close as i think possible though. It is of enormous use to me.

 

[bernardgreen]

i can inch twds concluding it is a frost protection mode.

Based on what you have posted it appears to be a de-icing function that is happening when it is un-necessary.

Google de-icing heat pumps

https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-advice/why-is-my-heat-pump-icing-up

 

[Sea Chief]

Based on what you have posted it appears to be a de-icing function that is happening when it is un-necessary.

Google de-icing heat pumps

https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-advice/why-is-my-heat-pump-icing-up

Yes ok thanks, so I am taking this as concurring with meldrewsmate. Ok i cannot wait any longer. He is here any minute.

I must conclude it is a frost protection, or de icing mode. This is now established then in my book.

So the question is why i was sent " boards to fix the overnight noise problem, it should not be coming on overnight, these boards are to stop it". Why my pump was replaced, if they knew it wasnt due to it being ott noisy (my innitial assumption, agreed by them, then it was changed.. for a bloody identical one which of course was no different whatsoever). Why i was sent on many red herrings attempting settings tweaks to rid it. Why they all agreed it was a fault, sending out engineers to adjust it "much better now" they convince me for a day or so, but it startng up again & what they did, time after time similar visits, making no difference.

It is atrocious customer care.

So, if this mode is something it is meant to do all along, it appears to be that i have been repeatedly lied to, hoodwinked, made a fool of by Vaillant. And if it is meant to do this all along, then why on earth is it in my spare room? If I had a baby in there, a son or daughter in there.. there lives would be impossible to use it as a bedroom. Anyone, it is unuseable as a bedroom when its cold. This unit's position has partly ruined my house making some of it redundant to use.

 

[Sea Chief]

The unit should not be put in this bedroom, any bedroom if this is a normal function it gas to perform. So solicitors has to therefore be the path, to me this seems the only route, but im happy for any other ideas.

The only last gasp option i have before solicitors, assuming citizens advice will be useless which i will try before this, then probe trading standards but i think the complexity will be too much for me to cope with..

..is to diy it to get it to register MINUS 4*c instead for eg, Or, to put in some delay setting lord knows what.

Or some other idea. Can anyone help?