Becoming a Competent Person

[charliegolf]

I've read the wiki and done searches to no avail...

Are there ways that I can train part time (evenings, day or distance learning) to be knowledgeable enough to safely and legally do small jobs and certify them (correct term?) as a competent person. Without having a job for the practical stuff. Ta.

CG

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Have you looked at the requirements for membership of the competent person schemes?

Why only small jobs?

What do you mean by "Without having a job for the practical stuff"?

 

[ericmark]

Basically no.

What you have to realise being a member of a competent persons scheme and being a competent person are two different things.

Being a member of a scheme means paying them fees and buying books to sit on a shelf even if you never read them. So every year it costs you money so to be a member you need to work for a good proportion of the time on work requiring notification through the scheme to be worth while. You in theroy should be a competent person before your excepted on a scheme.

The competent person is the top of four categories next is skilled next is instructed and last is ordinary. There is no qualification as such if all you every do is fit a FCU to power an alarm the skill required is not as high as designing and installing say a concrete press. For the latter you would need to be able to program a PLC and install all the safety switches to ensure the safety of yourself and others. But you would not need to know all that to ensure the safety of yourself and others when fitting a FCU.

Every job will involve inspection and testing to some level and the C&G 2391 and 2392 seem to be considered as the qualifications required to show you are competent to inspect and test. 2392 is cut down version of 2391 but neither are easy to pass. But some seem to regard having a C&G 2382 is enough but in real terms that only means you can read a book no questions ask you to work anything out all it does is show you can read. You actually have the book with you in the exam. To be far you need to be able to answer over 1/2 the questions without referring to book as there is not enough time to look them all up but still simple memory there is nothing that asks you to interpret anything.

There is also a PAT testing exam I think C&G 2377 and at one time where I live over the year you could take the C&G 2381, 2391, and 2377 being 6 weeks, 12 weeks, and 6 weeks course for around £150 back in 2002 but today the same courses and nearly the same exams 2381 has been replaced with 2382 when BS7671:2008 came out will cost nearly £1000.

The standard electricians course and exam are it would seem only done as day release and to be frank since I had not got those qualifications I sat in on a class with the idea of getting them but most of the class was so basic I did not bother and did a foundation degree in Electrical and Electronic engineering and my son did a HND same subject both are level 5 where as most electrical exams are classed as level 3.

To move from an allied trade to become an electrician is one thing I was an auto electrician but otherwise it's not really an option. People have done it and in my sons case he had to work for himself as no one would employ him he did however has a father and two grandfathers also in the trade so could get help. He is now running the electrical side of a large glass factory but it was a hard slog.

I am sure some one has done it. But the Richard Branson's of this world are few and far between and it is unlikely you will get the knowledge required without some family member in the trade to give you that helping hand.

 

[JohnW2]

I've read the wiki and done searches to no avail... Are there ways that I can train part time (evenings, day or distance learning) to be knowledgeable enough to safely and legally do small jobs and certify them (correct term?) as a competent person. Without having a job for the practical stuff.

I think the answers you have received so far indicate that there are uncertainties about what you are actually asking. Do you want to become 'an electrician', so that you could undertake any electrical work (including 'major jobs, like CU changes and 're-wires') for customers (in which case you might want to become a registered 'self-certifying' member of one of the Competent Persons Schemes), or, as you seem to have written, do you just want to acquire the knowledge and skills (and test equipment) necessary to enable you to do 'small electrical jobs' safely and competently? ... or what?

Kind Regards, John

 

[charliegolf]

Thanks for the replies. I suppose I am asking if I can become, 'enough of an electrician' to be able to say, install a shower circuit and fit the shower; or run cabling to my shed and fit sockets and lights. After which I could sell my house without a fuss over who did the jobs.

As an aside, would changing a shower unit that had packed up be notifiable if there were no circuit replacement. I ask because I must have done loads over the past 30 years (none since 2005 though.).

I don't want to become a self employed electrician- that ship has sailed for me I think.

 

[flameport]

Thanks for the replies. I suppose I am asking if I can become, 'enough of an electrician' to be able to say, install a shower circuit and fit the shower; or run cabling to my shed and fit sockets and lights.

There are plenty of providers of training courses who cover electrical work of all kinds. On most, being eligible for entry only depends on the size of your wallet.
The quality of training provided is less certain.

After which I could sell my house without a fuss over who did the jobs.

Notification is entirely separate - anyone can notify any building work, simply by completing the form and sending it to your local building control office with the required fee (£200 upwards). BC will most likely want to inspect the work at various stages, or send others to do so.
This is exactly the same for all types of building work, not just electrical. Such as installing windows, adding a toilet under the stairs, removing walls, installing heating appliances or constructing an extension.

Or you can join a competent persons scheme, which will cost you £500 per year, plus the various requirements of such a scheme - overall a cost of £1000 per year would not be unexpected.

For a few jobs in your own house, membership of a scheme will be far too expensive and inconvenient.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thanks for the replies. I suppose I am asking if I can become, 'enough of an electrician' to be able to say, install a shower circuit and fit the shower; or run cabling to my shed and fit sockets and lights.

Probably.

After which I could sell my house without a fuss over who did the jobs.

Depends what you mean by "fuss", but if you think you could become registered in order to self-certify, it simply isn't worth it (even if you could pass the assessment). It would cost thousands to get into a scheme, and then hundreds per year to stay in.

As an aside, would changing a shower unit that had packed up be notifiable if there were no circuit replacement.

No.

I don't want to become a self employed electrician

Then joining a Competent Person scheme is not for you.

 

[charliegolf]

Thanks all for the replies. Careful, small scale, non-notifiable work only for me then!

Cheers.

CG

 

[davelx]

Thanks all for the replies. Careful, small scale, non-notifiable work only for me then!

Cheers.

CG

Fine - but you still have to comply with part P of the building regs, even for non-notifiable work. This, in effect, means complying with the wiring regs, and those REQUIRE you to carry out inspection and testing and complete the appropriate certificates.

So you'll need the appropriate test equipment and the knowledge to use it and understand what it's telling you.

 

[speshman]

be interesting to see what happens to these 'schemes' when the 3rd Amendment comes in as they are removing that definition from the regs and moving to 'skilled' or 'instructed'

 

[JohnW2]

be interesting to see what happens to these 'schemes' when the 3rd Amendment comes in as they are removing that definition from the regs and moving to 'skilled' or 'instructed'

It may conceivably be considered necessary to change the name of the 'CP' Schemes, but it's really only a matter of words.

As things stand, there are numerous people who are (who would argue that they are) 'Competent Persons' in terms of the current BS7671 definition (and the everyday meaning of 'competent') who are not members of Competent Persons Schemes.

I would personally certainly prefer a change in the vocabulary (which would affect the whole of the Building Regs, for a start), since an awful lot of confusion is generated by the difference between the everyday meaning (and even current BS7671 definition) of 'competent' and the legal definitions of 'Competent Persons'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would personally certainly prefer a change in the vocabulary (which would affect the whole of the Building Regs, for a start), since an awful lot of confusion is generated by the difference between the everyday meaning (and even current BS7671 definition) of 'competent' and the legal definitions of 'Competent Persons'.

Tricky to change something which doesn't exist.

The Building Regulations do not contain the phrase "competent person(s)".

 

[JohnW2]

I would personally certainly prefer a change in the vocabulary (which would affect the whole of the Building Regs, for a start), since an awful lot of confusion is generated by the difference between the everyday meaning (and even current BS7671 definition) of 'competent' and the legal definitions of 'Competent Persons'.

Tricky to change something which doesn't exist.
The Building Regulations do not contain the phrase "competent person(s)".

Yes, I'd forgotten that. Schedule 3 (and everything referring to it) speaks only of 'members of Self-Certification Schemes'.

I think that it's Approved Doc P which is the real culprit, which, IIRC, talks about 'competent person(s)' all over the place!

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

The document refers to `registered competent person(s)` in relation to notifying relevant work and the term is explained in appendix a (person registered with self cert scheme). Para 3.10 covers non members competence and refers to checking qualifications.

 

[JohnW2]

The document refers to `registered competent person(s)` in relation to notifying relevant work and the term is explained in appendix a (person registered with self cert scheme). Para 3.10 covers non members competence and refers to checking qualifications.

Good to see you - you're about an hour early

Yes, what you say is true. I guess we can't tell whether Approved Doc P and/or the schemes themselves came up with the name of 'Competent Persons Self-Certification Scheme', or whether they were merely following the lead of BS7671. I suppose we may possibly find out next year, in terms of whether or not they feel the need to re-name the schemes once BS7671 no longer recognises/defines 'Competent Persons'.

Kind Regards, John