What is a competent person?

[NewOrder]

As Part P of the building regulations say all electrical work must be completed by a competent person what is actually meant by that?

I consider myself competent at the work I do because I only do basic electrical work such as swapping switches, sockets and light fittings. The most advance work I have ever done was install a Texacom burglar alarm into an FCU.

I consider myself competent because I know so how little I know in the grand scheme of things, so I know what work I am competent to do e.g I know I can change a switch as well as anybody, but I would never even dream of of touching anything in the consumer unit as that is well beyond my knowledge. I know how a CU is wired up in theory but I also know how dangerous messing about with electrics can be if you don't know what you're doing.

I do have a sort of electrical background, I have a grade B in GCSE electronics, I studied electronics at A level for a short while, and now work as a computer engineer. I know may ohms law and how to calculate what type of cable to use etc for a given installation.

So I am certainly certainly not competent to install a consumer unit or anything like that I know about 10% of what an electrician would know, but does that legally make me incompetent to change a light switch?

Sorry for the long post, I just thought it would be an interesting debate to see what a competent person actually is. I suspect some of it might come down to testing which most DIYers cannot do as the equipment costs £1000s. All I have is a one of them cheap £30 plug socket testers and a £200 oscilloscope/multimeter but I suppose that is still more than the average DIYer has.

 

[westie101]

From the DNO perspective

COMPETENT PERSON
A Person recognised by the Electricity Company as having sufficient
technical knowledge and/or experience to enable them to avoid Danger
and who may be nominated to receive and clear specified Safety
Documents.

 

[JohnD]

In Building Regulations terms, which I think is what you are asking, it needs to be a person who is a member of a Competent Persons Scheme.

Once you realise that they are asking for Membership, and not Competence, it becomes clearer.

Being an incompetent half-wit who is a member of a scheme, and scraped through the rudimentary exam with luck and guesswork meets their standard.

being a highly skilled and experienced person who is not a member does not.

 

[JohnW2]

In Building Regulations terms, which I think is what you are asking, it needs to be a person who is a member of a Competent Persons Scheme.

Judging by the totality of what is aid in the OP, I somehow doubt whether that was what was being asked. I think that all that is required in order to be able to comply with Part P of the Building Regs is to be 'competent' (with a small 'c' - i.e. with the necessary knowledge and skill) to undertake work in the manner described in, and required by, the words of Part P, not that one has to be a member of a Competent Persons Scheme.

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

Given that it is already defined in legislation within the EAW, that is probably the definition that should be used.

Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury
16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.

 

[JohnD]

As Part P of the building regulations say all electrical work must be completed by a competent person what is actually meant by that?

He is asking what Part P means.

joydivision, please paste in the wording that you have in mind so we know what you are talking about.

For example, did you see it in http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/bu...etapproval/wheretogetapproval/competentperson
or in
https://www.gov.uk/building-regulations-competent-person-schemes

 

[JohnW2]

As Part P of the building regulations say all electrical work must be completed by a competent person what is actually meant by that?

He is asking what Part P means.

Well, it certainly doesn't mean that all electrical work has to be undertaken by a member of a Competent Persons Scheme (which is what you implied) - or do you think it does?

As you say, joydivision probably needs to clarify what question (s)he is actually asking.

Kind Regards, John

 

[NewOrder]

I have seen things that state works must be completed by a competent person. Even to change a light switch it would state that, but clearly it is not illegal for job bloggs to change his light switch as longs as it is done safely.

So it cannot mean that you have to be a member of a scheme just to replace a light switch. I think that is what I am asking.

The IET website seems to clarify it here

Electrical contractors who register with a competent person self-certification scheme will be able to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations whenever they carry out 'notifiable' work. Persons who are not registered with a self-certification scheme - including DIYers - will need to notify or submit plans to a building control body, unless the work is non-notifiable.

I can't find a source now, but I have seen many things that state something like:-

"Although changing a light fitting is not notifable work, it the work must be completed by a competent person"

 

[riveralt]

I suspect some of it might come down to testing which most DIYers cannot do as the equipment costs £1000s. All I have is a one of them cheap £30 plug socket testers and a £200 oscilloscope/multimeter but I suppose that is still more than the average DIYer has.

The issue of test equipment is a red herring - you may have thousands of pounds worth of top notch test equipment and maybe even now how to use it - but if you cannot interpret the results correctly then it is a waste of money.
Anyway test equipment can be hired relatively cheaply for a day.
The problem with the definition of a competent person is that there is no definition and therefore Schemes and Local Authorities are free to make up their own definition in determining who is allowed to be called a competent person.
The only way that their definition can be challenged is in a civil court of law - and given the vested interests you are unlikely to get any of the Competent Person schemes seeking a ruling.
Which leaves just Joe the 'competent' but unregistered electrician all alone in the fight to set a standard definition.
Given the fact that it may cost several thousand pounds going through the court process - the exorbitant price (around £500) that LA's now charge seems almost cheap.

 

[JohnD]

trade websites cannot be relied upon to state the law.

 

[NewOrder]

So really the answer is as this has never been tried in a court of law nobody has a bloody clue what the actual law is in regard to DIY work unless the work is clearly notifiable e.g a new ring main from the CU or adding new lights in a bathroom etc.

 

[JohnW2]

So really the answer is as this has never been tried in a court of law nobody has a bloody clue what the actual law is in regard to DIY work unless the work is clearly notifiable e.g a new ring main from the CU or adding new lights in a bathroom etc.

I think that's about it. 'Notifiability' (which now applies to very little, at least in England) and the general requirement (law) that all electrical work be undertaken 'competently (i.e. by a 'competent person', small 'c') are obviously totally different matters. Even notifiable work doesn't have to be undertaken by a member of a Competent Person's Scheme, but must be done by a person 'competent' to do it in accordance with part P.

In the final analysis, I would suggest that most sensible/intelligent people are themselves aware of what they are, and are not, 'competent' to do - in terms of both knowledge and skill. Unfortuantely, we see a lot of examples in forums like this of people who clearly are not 'sensible/intelligent' enough to realise the extent and limitations of their 'competence' (or lack of it).

Kind Regards, John

 

[riveralt]

Even notifiable work doesn't have to be undertaken by a member of a Competent Person's Scheme, but must be done by a person 'competent' to do it in accordance with part P.

That is my point - this no longer applies to two Local Authority Building Control Offices I have spoken to - Up until last year I was a member of NAPIT and had been for a number of years -
To the LABC that 'recognised' level of competence no longer applies and I cannot do notifiable work.
Any work I do must be tested and certified by a member of one of the recognised schemes or I pay £500+ to notify the work and they send an 'electrician' around to test and certify my work.

 

[JohnW2]

That is my point - this no longer applies to two Local Authority Building Control Offices I have spoken to - Up until last year I was a member of NAPIT and had been for a number of years -
To the LABC that 'recognised' level of competence no longer applies and I cannot do notifiable work. Any work I do must be tested and certified by a member of one of the recognised schemes or I pay £500+ to notify the work and they send an 'electrician' around to test and certify my work.

Yes, but aren't you talking about two totally different things ('competence' and membership of a self-certification scheme)? I seriously doubt that the LABCs have any doubts about your 'competence' (small 'c') to undertake electrical work, but the system is such that only members of self-certification schemes (confusingly called 'Competent Persons Schemes') can self-certify - which I suppose makes sense.

You are in a far from unique position. I'm sure that there are many very 'competent' electricians (and even some pretty 'competent' non-electricians) out there who, for one reason or another, are not members of self-cert schemes - and therefore obviously are not able to self-certify.

Similar things happen in many walks of life. A doctor who has 'retired' may remain very 'competent' to practice medicine but unless (s)he chooses to continue paying the GMC their annual fee (and, these days, be subjected to regular 're-validation'), they are not allowed to practice.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As Part P of the building regulations say all electrical work must be completed by a competent person what is actually meant by that?

It doesn't say that.

So I am certainly certainly not competent to install a consumer unit or anything like that I know about 10% of what an electrician would know, but does that legally make me incompetent to change a light switch?

No.

But then there are some people trading as "electricians" who are probably not competent to install light switches, let alone CUs.

£200 oscilloscope/multimeter

No, but for money in that ball-park you could get a set of installation testers if you wanted to.