Bill Dispute

[JKBDIY]

Hello,

A few weeks ago I had a problem with my hot water supply on an Alpha Ocean 240 combi boiler. From past experience I knew that this was down to the pressure switch not switching and suspected the fan to be the culprit.

I removed the fan myself to clean it up a bit and discovered that it was damaged and in need of replacement. As a temporary measure, I reassembled it, put it back in the boiler, and tried my luck, nothing.

At this point I called a local boiler service company in and explained the situation over the phone before they arrived.

They turned up and confirmed that yes, I would need a new fan.

The following day the guy returned and installed my new fan - it spun up fine but didn't seem to be creating the necessary pressure to throw the switch. Taking the tubes off the fan end and blowing into the switch tripped the switch and the boiler fired fine - this confirmed that the switch was operating fine. At this stage i suggested that the wiring to the fan may be backwards and that the fan may be spinning in the wrong direction - the guy dismissed this as incorrect and continued faffing about for several hours. In the end, surprise! Reversing the wires solved the problem! In the meantime he'd also fitted a new thermocouple as a precaution.

I returned home that evening happy to find that the boiler was working fine as my wife was 8 months pregnant at the time and a bit distressed.

Within about an hour of being home though, the pilot light extinguished itself when i called for hot water. I phoned the place to inform them and they said they had fixed the problem that they were called out to fix and that to fix this would be a separate issue/call-out. The guy talked me through a couple of potential causes over the phone and I realized that the engineer had mounted the thermocouple far too high in the pilot light. Before moving it, I reignited the pilot light and called for hot water - pilot extinguished. I was able to recreate this several times over. I then moved the thermocouple down myself in line with the manufacturers recommend gapping. Problem solved and the boiler has worked flawlessly for several weeks now.

Sorry for the long explanation, but I received a bill for £600 today - including £220 for the fan (one I could get online for half that without any trade discount).

They also justified the time booked to the job by stating that I had the fan out and had reinstalled the wires incorrectly. This may be so, however the guy then had it out and in again and made the same mistake despite a wiring diagram pasted inside the back panel of the boiler! Not to mention the fact that they ultimately left me with a boiler that didn't work due to the guy being so incompetent that he couldn't install a thermocouple correctly!

Really unhappy with this treatment and I need a £600 bill like a hole in the head particularly with my wife now due next week!

Do you think I have grounds for a dispute here?

Thanks in advance for reading this lengthy rant, and any input you provide.

JKBDIY

 

[oilman]

A direct dispute over the bill will give you grief, but since you appear not to have agreed a price before they arrived, you can use the Doorstep Selling Regulation 2008 to deal with it. You can look it up on google. If the bill is greater than £35 you should have been given a piece of paper explaining your rights under the regulation before they started. If you didn't get this, they will lose in court.

 

[Agile]

That bill seems excessive for the work done and the skill shown.

A two wire fan will always turn in the same direction as the direction is set by its mechanical assembly.

I assume that the fan in a PP Alpha has three connections, one of them to allow a low speed when resting to keep the pilot light fed with fresh air.

There is a mith about "trade prices". We pay more to get spares over the counter ( usually ) although we could get them by mail order cheaper but then we would have to wait several days to receive them.

Most repairs charge a "retail price" which is about 30% more than they pay for parts. Thats part of the financing of the overheads of running a buisness.

We would have charged you £84 + about £160 for the fan + £8 for the thermocouple.

In my view you have been overcharged for a pretty incompetent engineer and I think you should dispute the bill.

For a start you could name the firm concerned!

Tony

 

[big-all]

the problem with you buying the fan is its your fan

the engineer fits it properly it packs up after 4 weeks you now must fix it yourself send it off for a replacement if your lucky everything goes well and you get a new one fitted within a week all costs are down to you
and i suspect an inspection or test may be required!!!

plumber supplies he repairs at his expence for free usualy same or next day

 

[D_Hailsham]

A direct dispute over the bill will give you grief, but since you appear not to have agreed a price before they arrived, you can use the Doorstep Selling Regulation 2008 to deal with it.

This is a relevant part of the regulations:

9. (1) Where the consumer enters into a specified contract and he wishes the performance of the contract to begin before the end of the cancellation period, he must request this in writing.

(4) For the purposes of this regulation and regulation 13, a "specified contact" means a contract for any of the following -

(d) the supply of goods to meet an emergency;
(j) the supply of services of any other kind.

This would suggest that the customer must agree in writing for the work to be commenced before the expiry of the seven day cooling off period. I can't see anyone with a broken down boiler saying: I'll have to think about this. I'll let you know within seven days if I want it repaired." Most suppliers (garage, dentist, conservatory installers etc) ask you to sign an order form before they will start work. The same now seems to apply for work done in the house.

THe OP would best be advised to contact Consumer Direct on 08454 04 05 06.

 

[oilman]

The point about notifying customers of their rights, is that not doing so, IN WRITING is a criminal offence.

 

[mickyg]

still amazes me that customers will have someone come round to do work, let them finish and dissapear without once querying the cost?
certainly being taken for a ride. I think its worth not paying at all just to teach the toe rags a lesson.

 

[bengasman]

From a moral point of view, the quality of the repair was poor and the price high.
From a legal point of view, I don't think you have a single leg to stand on.
You did not agree a price or a limit before, hence little redress on that part.
As you called them and asked to come around, doorstep selling does not apply.
The only thing you would have been entitled to is rectification of the problem, but you have done that yourself. Apart from it obviously not being necessary anymore, your own interfering with the boiler is probably justified cause for the chap to refuse further repairs under warrantee.

 

[Goldberg]

A direct dispute over the bill will give you grief, but since you appear not to have agreed a price before they arrived, you can use the Doorstep Selling Regulation 2008 to deal with it. You can look it up on google. If the bill is greater than £35 you should have been given a piece of paper explaining your rights under the regulation before they started. If you didn't get this, they will lose in court.

It's true that the trader should have presented a notice informing the customer of his rights, but failing to do this doesn't automatically remove the trader's right to payment.

For example, if you invite a contractor in to carry out repairs, and agree for the work to be done within 7 days, then you're still obliged to pay for the work done, and materials used, even if you subsequently cancel any work that was due to follow.

Consumer legisation requires that all prices charged are "reasonable", so any games of 100% markup on materials can be challenged. Equally, £100 per hour for a service that would cost £30 per hour anywhere else can be similarly challenged.

You also have a right to work carried out using "reasonable skill and care". You have to give the contractor the opportunity to rectify mistakes, but there is remedy in law for repeated failure - you engage another contractor and charge any extra cost to the first contractor.

 

[Goldspoon]

Consumer legisation requires that all prices charged are "reasonable",

Can you point me in the direction of that legislation?

I thought that one could charge what one wanted for services or products. For example - osteopaths all over the country charge £30 - £45 for half hour. On Harley Street I hear of some charging £300 for half hour.

 

[bengasman]

..Consumer legisation requires that all prices charged are "reasonable", so any games of 100% markup on materials can be challenged. Equally, £100 per hour for a service that would cost £30 per hour anywhere else can be similarly challenged...

How come ****ish gas are still in business?

 

[Goldberg]

Can you point me in the direction of that legislation?

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=goods+and+services+reasonable+skill+and+care&l=1

I thought that one could charge what one wanted for services or products.

I don't know why you thought that.

For example - osteopaths all over the country charge £30 - £45 for half hour.

That seems reasonable to me.

On Harley Street I hear of some charging £300 for half hour.

I recommend that you go to a doctor in another street.

 

[Agile]

How come ****ish gas are still in business?

As the major repairer of boilers in the UK then we could take the view that they set the yardstick on pricing and that their charges are reasonable.

A major problem arises with their fixed price repairs because they can undercut the independents just on the replacement parts without even any labour at all.

Tony

 

[simond]

It seems that you have fiddled with both the fan and the thermocouple, one before the service engineer turned up, and one after.

It is very difficult to diagnose a fault if a DIYer has dismantled and possibly incorrectly reassembled the boiler. Service engineers have a logical mind and do not expect the fan to have failed AND the cables to be attached in a different order.

I can appreciate your honesty, but at the same time I can see that the repairer takes the view that there were at least two faults; one being a dodgy fan, the other being the cables being connected to the wrong terminals.

The latter is not a 'fault' and therefore no reasonable repairer would factor it as a likely cause.


So to summarise by fiddling yourself you have undoubtedly caused the repairer a considerable amount of wasted time.

In contrast to our (other) barrack room legal experts I do not give you much chance of being taken seriously by a magistrate for the following reasons;

- the moment you describe readjusting the thermocouple. Your contractor will quite rightly draw the magistrate's attention to your competance in this matter, and the legislation in place to prevent you from carrying out such work. Your wife's condition could well count against you here.

- As is widely known, if you are unhappy with a repair the first thing you should do is give the repairer the opportunity to make amends. You did not allow them a reasonable time to do this.


I suggest you complain about the bill and suggest you might take the matter further, see if you can get a bit knocked off. I don't see you walking away from a court with anything.

 

[Goldberg]

In contrast to our (other) barrack room legal experts I do not give you much chance of being taken seriously by a magistrate...

Are you by any chance confused about the distinction between the County Court and the Magistrates Court?

I suggest you complain about the bill and suggest you might take the matter further, see if you can get a bit knocked off. I don't see you walking away from a court with anything.

He would have to show either breach of contract, but he can't because he didn't agree a price, or contravention of the Supply of Goods and Services Act on the grounds of either the charge being unreasonable or the work not being to a reasonable standard. Either or these would be an uphill battle, so directly challenging the bill is the most pragmatic course of action.