Boiler installation problem. What to do?.

[propertydev83]

Yesterday we had a Gas Safe registered company install a Heatline Caprizplus 24a combi with a temporary loop for the central heating.

My partner has just woken me up at 2.30am with water leaking out severely into the cupboard.

I've had a look and the pressure was high. I do not know why. I've turned off the mains stopcock and later switched the boiler off. The pressure began to drop as soon as I turned of the cold mains.

It appears to me that the newly added pipe outlet which runs to the outside of the house for the PRV has not been connected in the right place. There is a hole at the leftside underneath the boiler where the water is coming out, which I believe is where the PRV is located. The pipe outlet is connected to something in the middle underneath the boiler (I do not know what it is). No water has come out of that pipe at all.

The pressure dropped below the red level quickly after switching off the cold mains, and the water stopped gushing out, but it is continuing to drip. We've placed a sink bowl underneath, but there is still water dripping down to the ground floor below and from the ceiling presumably from all the water that came out before we were awake.

I really do not know what to do. My confidence in the engineers is not high right now. I have not yet paid because there was a couple of small things left to do on Monday. I don't know if I should inform them or have someone else come around and not have them back...

If I were to have someone else come I would still feel dubious and lack confidence. This is one reason I prefer doing most things myself!

Any advice appreciated. Or if any can 'recommend' an engineer who covers Epping Forest area and can come round to fix and finish the job at short notice, preferably Monday.

 

[DP]

What is stopping you to DIY. Why did you not pay the installer?
Reading your post suggests you lack proper knowledge of system components and function they perform, so what gives you the idea your skill level is going to exceed fitter's who has fitted this BnQ Mickey Mouse boiler. While not meaning to belittle this gem, if fitted correctly, all boilers give sterling service. Put into mix a cheap appliance, customer more concerned with looking at the cheapest instal, installer more concerned with fitting and running, you then have a dish that is anything but palatable

Remedial action you could take
Invite the installer back, check his gas safe identity and then let him finish the task

 

[nortonj]

Sounds like a nightmare, can you upload a picture?

 

[DP]

Nortonj, all I can conclude from lengthy post is, prv not connected, filling loop left on to 'top up' the system and there being a leak someplace hence pressure drops to zero after mains isolated; this can be a common issue when an aged system is fitted with a sealed system boiler without remedial work when only bottom line on a quote is the consideration

One does not need to have engineering degree to conclude problems on two fronts, installer (missing simple things like non connection of prv- but was he chased off the job/ walked off etc) and possibly poster ( going by installer not paid)

Bet there is more to the story than appears at present

 

[propertydev83]

DP,

No I do not have the knowledge. I know a bit about boilers from the one at our previous house, but I have never worked on one. Aside from the legality, I do not have the confidence to work with gas whatsoever. I do not like the risks involved with gas and have never solder welded pipework. I'm happy to work on most other things since I would double and triple check everything is correct.

My issue is that when you do not have the capability and knowledge, and so you pay someone who does have that, you should not then need to look over their shoulder to make sure everything is done correctly. And if you do need to do that then you may aswell be doing the bloody job yourself. This is why I said I prefer doing things myself. You can sadly only trust yourself in life...

What I do know is that a pressure relief valve will open when the pressure is too high for whatever reason (typically above 3 bar) to prevent the boiler blowing up, and the water is usually expelled outside the house (similarly to a water overflow pipe). This happened at our previous house when the filling loop was left open by someone (which I do know is for adding water to the central heating system) which raised the pressure beyond 3 bar, until I went and closed it, and bled water from the system elsewhere to get the pressure back down.

=========

What happened here:

Had no hot water since moving in two weeks ago and after sorting out other urgent matters, decided to get a combi fitted sooner rather than later.

Had previously searched gas safe register for local engineers (would prefer recommendations in hindsight).

Got quotes for replacing ancient and faulty immersion heater and backboiler with a combi.

Decided on using a fitter with a reasonable price (wasn't necessarily looking for the outright cheapest).

Asked if possible for boiler to be fitted but not yet connected to central heating system due to other works being carried out. Informed this can be done by fitting a pipe between the CH flow and return connections so that the boiler can be got up to pressure (made sense to me from my limited knowledge).

Boiler fitted yesterday including flue, a new pipe running from the boiler under the floor and to the outside of the house (which I PRESUME was intended for the pressure relief valve), a pipe connecting the CH flow and return.

Installer not yet paid (they hadn't asked) because they were coming back Monday to fit the roof tile for the flue and a couple of other quick jobs.

Was told it's all up and running, did use it for a bath yesterday.

Partner woke me up in the night (luckily she is a light sleeper and we didn't end up with the solid concrete floor downstairs flooded through the night).

Saw water gushing out of what looks like it should be a pipe connection at the bottom left of the boiler. Boiler pressure was over 3 bar. I went and turned off the stopcock in the kitchen. Partner put bowl beneath to catch the water. Boiler pressure began to taper off after closing stopcock and once below 3 bar the water went from gushing to steady constant dripping.

Checked new pipe that goes outside the house. Bone dry. My assumption is that this pipe (as said, presumably to expel the water from the PRV) should have been connected where the water was coming out. Looked in the instruction manual and online immediately to try and determine the PRV location on this boiler. Struggled to find the info, but it did appear to be the bottom left of the boiler, which seems to confirm that the pipe is in the wrong place.

I have absolutely no idea at present what that pipe is actually connected to at the middle bottom of the boiler.

Came on here to make this thread in the hope of advice and recommendations of what to do. (Have them back, or who to turn to for urgent help). Kind of decided afterwards that I do not want to use the same fitters but would be prepared to pay them the quoted price less whatever I have to pay someone else to fix and finish the job.

Switched off boiler and mains gas supply.

=========

I hope that makes the situation clearer. My reasons for not wanting them back:

- Mistakes happen, but it is such a significant mistake which shouldn't happen and makes me question competency.

- If my partner was a deep sleeper like me, the downstairs of our house with a concrete floor could easily have flooded and ruined all our possessions.

- From what the engineer's helper was saying to me yesterday, the engineer is clearly taking on too much work, making little mistakes, and clearly stressed out (which I could see myself).

- The hole in the roof for the flue is not "finished" yet, but I'm not particularly confident in it being done correctly now.

- Engineer informed me that there may be a minor gas leak. I was told that 4mb drop is permissable (my own research since confirmed this) if there is no smell of gas. He said that initially when turning on the gas (it was off before he came) there was a 3mb drop which was of concern. After the work was done it was a 2mb drop. He said if there is no smell of gas then it would be fine, but if gas is smelt then switch off the supply, call them, and they will have to re-route the gas line (it currently runs through the concrete ground floor). Last evening I felt there MAY have been a faint smell of gas coming in the living room, but it smelt stronger out in the porch/lobby where the gas meter is). I wouldn't mind re-routing the gas line as the boiler is the only gas service being used and kept in this house, but I do not feel confident having them do that work.

- Minor issue, but there also appeared to be a small amount of weeping from the connection at one end of the filling loop beneath the boiler which runs from the cold mains to the CH.

 

[Agile]

I charge £840 to fit a Vaillant or a Heatline as there is the same amount of work involved.

However it is a well known fact that those who choose a cheap boiler also chose a cheap installer.

Since those boilers can be as cheap as £380 to buy then it is very likely the installer was probably due to be paid about £200 to fit the boiler, all to be completed in one day and without any power flushing. Also in this case apparently not connecting the PRV vent pipe.

So my conclusion based on the information supplied is that he was a very cheap installer and perhaps even a migrant from another country where the cost of living is very low.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Still need to see a picture of the underside of the boiler, but sounds like his biggest mistake was leaving the filling loop on. Everything else, for all you know might have been on the cards for Monday.

Ignore what opinions minions might have. Half the time they are not in possession of the facts

 

[Dan Robinson]

Since those boilers can be as cheap as £380 to buy then it is very likely the installer was probably due to be paid about £200 to fit the boiler, all to be completed in one day and without any power flushing. .

Huh? How did you reach that conclusion?

 

[propertydev83]

Total cost of installation: £1700. (Remove water cylinder and cold storage tank, gas fire, and back boiler. Install new boiler and flue. Add temporary pipe to create CH pipework circuit until we are ready to have the CH system connected to the boiler at a later date.)

I stated I was looking for mid-range boiler. Engineer recommended Heatline if on a budget as it is basically a Vaillant since the company was bought out (he used an analogy that Skoda used to be cheap nasty cars until bought out by VW, and now with VW parts they have become a really good brand). I did a bit of research and found that most people reporting problems online with Heatline boilers was from shortly after being bought out by Vaillant, so it seemed like teething problems, as there seemed to be very little problems reported in more recent years. After discussing with partner we decided on the Heatline.

I will post a picture of the underside of the boiler shortly.

I do not feel it is unreasonable to use someone else at this point, considering what happened last night in particular.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Way too cheap to me, something doesn't add up.


You will have to pay the installer too.

 

[propertydev83]

Way too cheap to me, something doesn't add up.


You will have to pay the installer too.

I figured it would be fair to pay their quoted price minus whatever I pay someone else:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/my-boiler-hasnt-been-installed-properly-what-can-i-do

Not installing PRV correctly, possibly making a mistake which has caused the pressure to rise, then telling the customer it's all up and running, ready to use, etc does not sound like a proper installation and was an inevitable disaster...

 

[Dan Robinson]

Until you post a picture i'm sticking with what I wrote.



That kind of money for that kind of job is hardly going to get you a tradesman at the top of his game though. I'd be very surprised if there were any cheaper comparable quotes. So ultimately you got what you paid for.

A filling loop left open is hardly a capital crime and I would suggest not one that justifies booting the installer off the job.

Don't get me started on Which? Magazine.

 

[propertydev83]

The small pipe end/hole in front of the CH flow with the red tap is where the water was coming from.

I do not know what the hose in the middle in front the gas with the yellow tap is connected to, but that leads to the pipe that exits the house.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Flexible pipe is the condensate drain.


Prv needs connecting. Filling loop left open.

So one mistake and one job left to do.


To me you are being unreasonable.

 

[Bosswhite]

First inform, the Installer, you have both made a contract to have the work done, the Installer has a legal obligation to put right any faults and put right any damage caused by the faults that have occured ( that is if he has Public Liability Insurance)
To boot him off the job at this time means you will forgo any legal obligations on his part.