Boilermate 2000 and Myson Apollo 30B - Store slow to heat

[mickyg]

Actually, you could be spot on with Boilermate IIs on this estate. I know the houses were built 1993 and our store was replaced in 2004 by BG (I think)

The rads were pathetically under sized in living room, so had to get bigger ones, then another in the loft conversion. Pure guess work, but i would say we have nearly doubled the volume of the rad circuit, based on panel size. I think the installers have over looked this point! I want to increase the size of one more rad, so this will only compound the issue.

Any suggestions of someone locally who can fix me up with a new boiler and what boiler would be required, I would like to keep the store.

ok i know where you are now. send me an email, email in profile. Sounds like from your last post you might be stretching the limitations of the system. Trouble is new boilers dont work particularly well with thermal stores, and manufacturers are not keen on their products being connected to them.

 

[be11aml]

Mickyg

I can't see your email in your profile. Sent you a friend request, maybe that will help

 

[GaytonTonner]

Actually, you could be spot on with Boilermate IIs on this estate. I know the houses were built 1993 and our store was replaced in 2004 by BG (I think)

The rads were pathetically under sized in living room, so had to get bigger ones, then another in the loft conversion. Pure guess work, but i would say we have nearly doubled the volume of the rad circuit, based on panel size. I think the installers have over looked this point! I want to increase the size of one more rad, so this will only compound the issue.

Any suggestions of someone locally who can fix me up with a new boiler and what boiler would be required, I would like to keep the store.

ok i know where you are now. send me an email, email in profile. Sounds like from your last post you might be stretching the limitations of the system. Trouble is new boilers dont work particularly well with thermal stores, and manufacturers are not keen on their products being connected to them.

Report back on the findings. It is true that some boilers are not so suited to thermal stores, as they modulate down on the return temperature. They aim to maintain a Delta T of say 16C to protect the heat exchanger. If the return is 40C then it throttles back the flow temp to 56C. Some can maintain a constant flow temp, by control panel selection. Others cannot. The warm up time is reduced, but they get to maximum temp eventually.

One way around this is to find out what the boiler's control system does. You could put a blending valve in the flow and return of the boiler to maintain a return temp of say 55C, if the delta T is 15C and a store temp of 75 is needed. Some makers give a maximum delta T, but you need to phone them. If they recommend 15C and say 20C is fine, set the blending valve to 50C and a store temp of say 70C.

The cheap BIASIs and the likes maintain a constant flow temp and modulate back to maintain it. This is where thermal stores score well. You can use cheap boilers and they do not wear so much because of the operating conditions. That is, they are more reliable heating a thermal store. They only come in a few times a day for one long heat up with no boiler cycling. Te control do wear out so much. There is no click, click click of the controls as when heating rads directly.

 

[45yearsagasman]

45years - the whole point of a Thermal store is to allow a SMALL BOILER to be fitted to the system!! a 9Kw boiler is common on a boilermate system surely you have seen these especially in E. Anglia!

Thanks for that! The customer has added extra rads to his system so 9kw woulld struggle to replace heat losses especially in severe weather.You can't keep adding rads and not increase boiler capacity.That boiler was sized for original heat loss calcs,and in my opinion woud now start to struggle especially if its under rated and due to its age,and by the way the whole point of thermal stores is not only to allow a small boiler.Cheers.

 

[mickyg]

and by the way the whole point of thermal stores is not only to allow a small boiler.Cheers.

no they also make good magnetite filters

 

[45yearsagasman]

Amen to that MickyG

 

[GaytonTonner]

and by the way the whole point of thermal stores is not only to allow a small boiler.Cheers.

no they also make good magnetite filters

A Magnaboost filter on the rads return to the thermal store (or on any rad circuit on any system for that matter) sorts all that out. Also, having the rad circuit off a coil in the cylinder or a plate heat exchanger, also sorts it out. The magnetite in open, direct systems collects in the store rather than the rads as it does in boiler/direct rad systems. A thermal store does not generate any more magnetite than any other system, as many think they do.

On thermal store systems the store is designed to store enough heat to dump into the rad circuit on startup with some to spare for DHW. This should be enough to get the house near enough up to temperature. Then the small boiler cuts in reheating the store while the system is effectively on part load. The small boiler works flat out, efficiently, at times topping up.

In many cases the boiler is fine, the store capacity needs increasing. This can be done by fitting another small cylinder and series connecting up with the existing store cylinder.

 

[be11aml]

Thanks for all your helpful comments.

The second BG engineer actually did some tests to see what the was. It appears that the boiler is unable to heat the water to a high enough temp. He tried to increase gas pressure, but it made very little difference and then failed emissions tests.

Flow temp was reading about 55, however the store does eventually get to 77.

So, new boiler required at least. I am concerned that the store volume may be too small, as I still require one more radiator changed. If the boiler is performing properly, Should it be able to keep up with demand?

Is there any guidance on the size of store compared to volume of rads?

 

[mickyg]

and by the way the whole point of thermal stores is not only to allow a small boiler.Cheers.

no they also make good magnetite filters

A Magnaboost filter on the rads return to the thermal store (or on any rad circuit on any system for that matter) sorts all that out. Also, having the rad circuit off a coil in the cylinder or a plate heat exchanger, also sorts it out. The magnetite in open, direct systems collects in the store rather than the rads as it does in boiler/direct rad systems. A thermal store does not generate any more magnetite than any other system, as many think they do.

Sorry I can't agree with that comment. Systems with thermal stores are some of the most sludged up I have ever seen and quicker. I here this "oh but you need more inhibitor". well true that is but many systems have no inhibitor for years and they dont get so bad. They encourage sludge, no bones about it, I've dealt with hundreds, possibly thousands of these things and its not even up for debate. The question why, IS debatable. I've wondered about the lack of circulation through the store(less speed, more corrosion?) , the amount/type of metals and so on. But its just theorising.

 

[mickyg]

Thanks for all your helpful comments.

The second BG engineer actually did some tests to see what the was. It appears that the boiler is unable to heat the water to a high enough temp. He tried to increase gas pressure, but it made very little difference and then failed emissions tests.

Flow temp was reading about 55, however the store does eventually get to 77.

So, new boiler required at least. I am concerned that the store volume may be too small, as I still require one more radiator changed. If the boiler is performing properly, Should it be able to keep up with demand?

Is there any guidance on the size of store compared to volume of rads?

what boilermate is it ? should be a model number on it somewhere under the cover.

 

[GaytonTonner]

and by the way the whole point of thermal stores is not only to allow a small boiler.Cheers.

no they also make good magnetite filters

A Magnaboost filter on the rads return to the thermal store (or on any rad circuit on any system for that matter) sorts all that out. Also, having the rad circuit off a coil in the cylinder or a plate heat exchanger, also sorts it out. The magnetite in open, direct systems collects in the store rather than the rads as it does in boiler/direct rad systems. A thermal store does not generate any more magnetite than any other system, as many think they do.

Sorry I can't agree with that comment. Systems with thermal stores are some of the most sludged up I have ever seen and quicker. I here this "oh but you need more inhibitor". well true that is but many systems have no inhibitor for years and they dont get so bad.

They do, but the sludge collects in the radiators and in boiler's heat exchanger.

They encourage sludge, no bones about it, I've dealt with hundreds, possibly thousands of these things and its not even up for debate. The question why, IS debatable. I've wondered about the lack of circulation through the store(less speed, more corrosion?) , the amount/type of metals and so on. But its just theorising.

They do not encourage sludge. You hit it with the lack of circulation through the cylinder. The water speed will be high in the rads and when it get to the large volume of water in the cylinder it slow right down. Any solids drops to the bottom of the cylinder. The cylinder acts a s filter.

Gledhill made some thermal store with the boiler and rads on separate circuits. The Systemate had no water running through. The water on the cylinder was just a store of water and no more, no going anywhere. They "recommended" 1 can of X100, but not essential.

Sludge can be stopped by

1. Having a sealed cylinder

2. A Magnaboost filter on the return of the rad circuit back to the store cylinder on an open system, will stop sludge build up. Just empty the filter once a year, by opening a tap.

3. Having the rads off a coil in the cylinder. The thermal store and boiler then have no ferrous to corrode, apart from a pump. This can be eliminated by having a brass pump.

 

[GaytonTonner]

Thanks for all your helpful comments.

The second BG engineer actually did some tests to see what the was. It appears that the boiler is unable to heat the water to a high enough temp. He tried to increase gas pressure, but it made very little difference and then failed emissions tests.

Flow temp was reading about 55, however the store does eventually get to 77.

So, new boiler required at least. I am concerned that the store volume may be too small, as I still require one more radiator changed. If the boiler is performing properly, Should it be able to keep up with demand?

Is there any guidance on the size of store compared to volume of rads?

The rule of thumb is, store volume 1.5 that of the volume of the rad circuit.

What is wrong with the boiler? Remember, that a boiler only raises the water a set temperature. If the water temp rise is say 30C and the return from the store to the boiler is 25C, the flow will only get to 55C. Try slowing the pump down. Water may be running through the boiler too fast.

 

[mickyg]

1. Having a sealed cylinder

2. A Magnaboost filter on the return of the rad circuit back to the store cylinder on an open system, will stop sludge build up. Just empty the filter once a year, by opening a tap.

3. Having the rads off a coil in the cylinder. The thermal store and boiler then have no ferrous to corrode, apart from a pump. This can be eliminated by having a brass pump.

you missed out

4. Dont bother, seeing as there's no advantage to them over an UV cylinder.

 

[GaytonTonner]

1. Having a sealed cylinder

2. A Magnaboost filter on the return of the rad circuit back to the store cylinder on an open system, will stop sludge build up. Just empty the filter once a year, by opening a tap.

3. Having the rads off a coil in the cylinder. The thermal store and boiler then have no ferrous to corrode, apart from a pump. This can be eliminated by having a brass pump.

you missed out

4. Dont bother, seeing as there's no advantage to them over an UV cylinder.

DHW only thermal stores are comparable to unvented cylinders. You are making a big mistake. The simple stainless steel DHW only thermal stores are superior to unvented cylinders. Many are heated by a coil isolating them from the rad circuit eliminating sludge. The DHW only stores have few valves on them, being very simple. Unvented cylinders are full of the stuff and they are not cheap to replace. The integrated DHW and CH stores are not comparable to unvented cylinders. They are very different. Thermal stores are easy on boilers with a far reduced wear factor. Full electric DHW and CH backup is achievable with thermal stores. They are great for UFH and mixed heat sources

I was talking to a dealer the other day. He said the sales of high flow combis has risen with unvented cylinders dropping. Thermal stores never took off because makers never designed or made the off-the-shelf packages well enough. Ignorance of them never helped either. It looks like the high flow combis have put the brakes on unvented cylinders, which only have a small percentage of cylinder sales anyhow.

I am impressed with the Dutch high flow combis, particularly the ATAG with the integrated gassaver and the Intergas (this is so simple). Why the Intergas has not taken off in big way in Britain I do not know.
The Dutch need to learn marketing skills. They have the products and quality.

 

[mickyg]

You are making a big mistake. The simple stainless steel DHW only thermal stores are superior to unvented cylinders.

No you are, and they are not.

Unvented cylinders are full of the stuff and they are not cheap to replace.

rubbish. They have a few safety devices which very rarely operate and therefore very rarely fail, unlike mixer valves on stores which in hard water areas need changing as often as once a year.

Thermal stores are easy on boilers with a far reduced wear factor

thats rubbish too, sales blurb from the manufacturers, you fell for it.

Thermal stores are easy on boilers with a far reduced wear factor. Full electric DHW and CH backup is achievable

achievable? yeh i guess if you stick 3 or 4 immersions in it. back in the real world a 3kw immersion isnt gonna give much heating back up. and will rob all the heat out the store for the hot water. pointless.

They are great formixed heat sources

They are and thats all they're good for

I am impressed with the Dutch high flow combis, particularly the ATAG with the integrated gassaver

finally i agree with you on something. The A325ec is a brilliant product and is the cheapest and best boiler available with a gas saver, ive fitted about 12 in the last year.