Boilermate 2000 and Myson Apollo 30B - Store slow to heat

[GaytonTonner]

Please, I do not go by makers blurb. And please do not write that what I write is rubbish. It is far from that. You do yourself no favours. A forum like this is to exchange knowledge, not express prejudices.

All the thermal store makers make unvented and vented cylinders as well. They have nothing to gain by promoting thermal stores over any other cylinder. I do know exactly what I am on about having fitted, and still fit, many thermal stores and have done since the 1980s. You seem to have a thing about unvented cylinders as a competitor to a thermal store. They are not, except the DHW only versions.

One company is making a stainless steel DHW only coiled thermal store, not using a plate heat exchanger. These are superb. They are very simple and highly effective. They are heated by a coil, which means the bad sludged up rad water does not get inside the store and do damage. The DHW take-off is also via a coil. They have a stat and a blending valve. You can specify two stats to prevent boiler cycling. Give me one of these over any unvented cylinder any day. They are simple and last and last. Unvented cylinder so have complex pressure control gear. And they are not cheap to replace. I know of one homeowner who ditched an unvented cylinder for a high flow combi setup as the cost of replacing defective pressure control valves was way over the top. Drastic? Maybe, but his boiler was old and uneconomical, as well, so probably the wise thing to do. he appreciated the extra space and said he will use the airing cupboard to build a shower cubicle in the bathroom.

Thermal stores ARE very easy on boilers. To say they are not indicates a lack of knowledge on your part. A boiler which operates full out a few times a day, without cycling, is just going to last longer. It is as simple as that. I know of boilers on thermal stores with two anti-cycle stats that have been trouble free for 15 years. Yes and these were Baxi dogs and some were copper heat exchanger FuelSavers. Put them in an easy environment with full flow through the heat exchangers and no sludge running through the system, and they just last. That is, nothing has failed on the boiler. They only switch in a few times a day to reheat all of the store without any cycling.

The constant restricted flow of rad valves and constant cycling of boilers on a rad circuits means they do not last. They can't as the controls are over-used. The heat exchangers get full of sludge baked onto the insides and the flow is poor through them most of the time.

I have never known of blending valves fail every year. You must use cheap products. I did convert a Gledhill Systemate to a simple controlled thermal store by removing the pcb board, inserting a blending valve, stem thermostat and a simple relay inside the box. Anyone can understand it. Gledhill do make a simple store anyhow. They are not all with pcb boards. I have come across Gledhills that have been thrown out because the pcb was duff. This sort of ignorance I come across far too often. The customer is thousands of pounds out of pocket, and mess, for usually an unneeded inferior replacement.

It is nice to see we agree on the ATAG. Yes, it has an integrated gassaver which if you bought an Alpha with one, it would cost far, far more than the ATAG, which is a superior product overall.

I am impressed with the Intergas in its simple design and reliability record. They do not make a real high very flow combi, as ATAG and other do, which is a disappointment. I am surprised installers have not gone for the Intergas. If they took it up, then Intergas would sell them more and market more. I find many installers do not know what is available out there sticking to the best deal they get from the local merchant, which may mean a poor Baxi, Ideal or Potterton. I hope the quality of Baxi/Pott increases as the Dutch have bought them out.

If the cold main pressure is fine, in most of my new work I fit high flow combis or a DHW only thermal store if a cylinder change. The look on their faces when they see the mains pressure over the dribble from tanks, is a great seller alone. I have never had a callback on a DHW thermal store. In larger homes I go for the integrated CH/DHW thermal stores. Not one I have ever installed has sludged up. I make sure they do not by designing them properly and getting the right thermal stores.

I fit Magnaboost filters on all system, irrespective. They are brass and well made. They are worth the extra few quid. I dropped the awful plastic Magnaclean years ago. The new Fernox filter is also plastic.

 

[be11aml]

I have a BM185, which has 150 l capacity.

It is very slow to heat and the draw is definitely bigger than boiler can cope with. Question is, whether boiler is at fault.

I've also noticed hot water runs cold at points during showers, but this may be linked to the store temp being low.

 

[mickyg]

Please, I do not go by makers blurb. And please do not write that what I write is rubbish. It is far from that. You do yourself no favours. A forum like this is to exchange knowledge, not express prejudices.

you questioned my knowledge and said i was making a mistake. I bite back, eye for an eye and all that...

You seem to have a thing about unvented cylinders as a competitor to a thermal store. They are not

customer wants mains flow hot water with some backup if the boiler fails. You have 2 options, UV or thermal store. Thats obviously competition.

One company is making a stainless steel DHW only coiled thermal store, not using a plate heat exchanger. These are superb. They are very simple and highly effective. They are heated by a coil, which means the bad sludged up rad water does not get inside the store and do damage. The DHW take-off is also via a coil. They have a stat and a blending valve. You can specify two stats to prevent boiler cycling. Give me one of these over any unvented cylinder any day. They are simple and last and last.

yes they are alot better than the old ones that stored the heating water. Although most coil units use multi mini bore pipes inside the store to increase heat transfer. In hard water areas these scale up. I've had to remove 5 yr old units because they were blocked solid and pin holed.

Unvented cylinder so have complex pressure control gear. And they are not cheap to replace.

Clap trap. They are not complex and they very rarely fail. neither are they particularly expensive. I replace around 3 blending valves on thermal stores for every valve i have to change on a UV and I look after a darn site more UVs.

Thermal stores ARE very easy on boilers. To say they are not indicates a lack of knowledge on your part. A boiler which operates full out a few times a day, without cycling, is just going to last longer. It is as simple as that.

I never said they wasnt, just that its not any better than a standard system with decent controls. Most stores I come across need a flow temp in excess of 75C which is not going to be easy on any condensing boiler i know quite the opposite.

The constant restricted flow of rad valves and constant cycling of boilers on a rad circuits means they do not last. They can't as the controls are over-used. The heat exchangers get full of sludge baked onto the insides and the flow is poor through them most of the time.

Properly designed systems with decent controls don't cycle. and where is this sludge coming from? None of my systems have it. Basics.

I have never known of blending valves fail every year. You must use cheap products. I did convert a Gledhill Systemate to a simple controlled thermal store by removing the pcb board, inserting a blending valve, stem thermostat and a simple relay inside the box. Anyone can understand it. Gledhill do make a simple store anyhow. They are not all with pcb boards. I have come across Gledhills that have been thrown out because the pcb was duff. This sort of ignorance I come across far too often. The customer is thousands of pounds out of pocket, and mess, for usually an unneeded inferior replacement.

I live in a very hard water area. Blending valves suffer. I don't use generic parts, always the part recommended by the store manufacturer, which is usually Gledhill. Not carrying out basic repairs is another matter. I'm primarily a repair engineer so i can echo those sentiments.

I find many installers do not know what is available out there sticking to the best deal they get from the local merchant, which may mean a poor Baxi, Ideal or Potterton. I hope the quality of Baxi/Pott increases as the Dutch have bought them out.

too many idiototic clueless installers. yes agree there. Surrounded by them where i live. The Remeha and the Pot/baxi are almost identical anyway fyi. Remeha is nothing special, just a bunch of industry standard bits. Thats another discussion...

can't argue with anything else you've said

 

[mickyg]

I have a BM185, which has 150 l capacity.

It is very slow to heat and the draw is definitely bigger than boiler can cope with. Question is, whether boiler is at fault.

I've also noticed hot water runs cold at points during showers, but this may be linked to the store temp being low.

Could be a mixture of both. Store slightly undersized (although it sounds about right for the property size)and boiler not powerful enough to top up the store quickly. You can check how much gas your boiler is using by timing the gas used at the meter while it is running. Should give you an idea if its working correctly. You would of hoped the BG engineer would have checked this..

 

[GaytonTonner]

you questioned my knowledge and said i was making a mistake. I bite back, eye for an eye and all that...

You were making a big mistake. You clearly did not know the full operation of thermal stores, your comments on boilers connected to stores proved that, and making illogical comparisons.

customer wants mains flow hot water with some backup if the boiler fails. You have 2 options, UV or thermal store. Thats obviously competition.

Only with DHW only thermal stores. As i have pointed out to you, a CH and DHW stores are different beasts. Do you want a highly reliable, stainless steel, sludge free, service free (no G3 rip-off men to attend) thermal store? They are there. Find out what is on the market. But you said you are service man, so installation of current products will be out of your realm.

I have fitted stainless stores with the boiler heating the store direct and the CH taken off a coil to prevent sludge build up. The DHW is off a coil. These are super vented and super simple. The boilers reheat in no time all and last and last.

Although most coil units use multi mini bore pipes inside the store to increase heat transfer. In hard water areas these scale up. I've had to remove 5 yr old units because they were blocked solid and pin holed.

This does not occur with the stainless steel thermals stores which you have chosen to ignore.

If the CH water is inside the store, a Magnaboost filter stops the sludge build up. All that is happening when sludge builds up is that it is transferred from the rads to the store cylinder. The filter grabs it if the inhibitor fails. It is easy to flush out using a Magnaboost filter.

I do not want to be dragged into this unvented cylinder thing you have in your head. But they ARE expensive to get repaired. Only G3 men can service and install them and parts are not cheap for them. A DIYer can fit a thermal store.

If you replace blending valves the use quality products.

You did write that thermal store were not easy on boilers. A thermal store with two simple anti-cycle stats is far, far, far superior to a direct rad/boiler set up. Modern boilers are noted for the cycling, which means far more wear. They are noted for the lack of flow through the Heat exchanger due to poor installation, design and over use of thermo rad valves.

To write that a boiler on thermal store is "not any better than a standard system with decent controls", displays ignorance of the systems. Boilers on stores reheat in one long burn.

A store temp in excess of 75C is easy on a condensing boiler, it does not give any extra wear. Stores using plate heat exchangers for DHW, can run at 65C. Many can easy run at 70C. With a Delta T of 20C that is a return temp of 50C. Giving great efficiencies. A store set to 80C will condense the boiler in approx 85% of reheat time, dispelling the high temp, low efficiency. myths.

You wrote, "where is this sludge coming from? None of my systems have it". Look in the rads. Put on a Magnaboost and go back in year and look. Look at the 100,000s of systems with no inhibitor in them with sludge running around the system baking on the boiler innards and blocking the rads.

You have been tainted by Gledhill, who made some decent stores, but some were not designed quite right at all. They should have been stainless not copper, with CH take-off coils inside to prevent sludge. They should have been a real one-box solution, apart from the boiler.

 

[mickyg]

You were making a big mistake. You clearly did not know the full operation of thermal stores, your comments on boilers connected to stores proved that, and making illogical comparisons.

I know perfectly well how they work. You misread, misunderstood or just didnt properly read what I wrote.

But you said you are service man, so installation of current products will be out of your realm.

Dont make assumptions. I know perfectly well whats on the market. Just because I don't install every day means nothing. In my experience most installers only know how to connect pipes together. Repair engineers need to know why it doesnt work. Which requires a fundamental understanding of how things work. Much better equipped to form an opinion on what works and what doesnt (in the real world) wouldn't you say?

I do not want to be dragged into this unvented cylinder thing you have in your head. But they ARE expensive to get repaired. Only G3 men can service and install them and parts are not cheap for them. A DIYer can fit a thermal store.

These are words straight out of the mouth of George Bramwell. Or should i say water systems? or dr drivel? welcome back anyway. try not to get banned this time.

You did write that thermal store were not easy on boilers. A thermal store with two simple anti-cycle stats is far, far, far superior to a direct rad/boiler set up. Modern boilers are noted for the cycling, which means far more wear. They are noted for the lack of flow through the Heat exchanger due to poor installation, design and over use of thermo rad valves.

I did not. Again, read what i wrote. You said they have less wear than on a normal system. I said that was rubbish which it is. Listen. A properly installed modern boiler with the right controls will not have more wear than one connected to a thermal store, actually it will be better off as you can lower flow temperatures to match demand. Do you think its any surprise most boiler manufacturers dont like their boilers being connected to thermal stores?
Something else which you can do with a normal system is only use the boiler when its needed, rather than keeping a tank warm 24/7 365 days a year which is wasteful, no matter how many coats you put round it.

You wrote, "where is this sludge coming from? None of my systems have it". Look in the rads. Put on a Magnaboost and go back in year and look. Look at the 100,000s of systems with no inhibitor in them with sludge running around the system baking on the boiler innards and blocking the rads.

Again this displays a real lack of knowledge of how sludge is created and where it comes from. I test system water on my systems on every annual service and they are always fine. Inihbitor isn't even necessary on sealed systems. Go to Germany and get out your inhibitor and you'll be laughed at. A system can be installed so that sludge isn't created. If your getting sludge in your systems then I'll be happy to show you where your going wrong.

You have been tainted by Gledhill, who made some decent stores, but some were not designed quite right at all. They should have been stainless not copper, with CH take-off coils inside to prevent sludge. They should have been a real one-box solution, apart from the boiler.

To some extent yes, most of my dealings are with Gledhill. who as far as i have seen haven't made one decent product. The later systemate design looked much better, but I havent had first hand experience so I can't comment. The problem is you don't read what I'm writing, you just want to go off on one with your thermal store love affair. I haven't said they are bad or a bad idea when properly installed and a decent design, there's just better solutions.
Anyway, as i said, welcome back george

 

[GaytonTonner]

You said they [boilers] have less wear than on a normal system. I said that was rubbish which it is.

This proves you know little of thermal stores.

Listen. A properly installed modern boiler with the right controls will not have more wear than one connected to a thermal store, actually it will be better off as you can lower flow temperatures to match demand.

This proves my point. Few boilers go below 6 to 8 kW. A boiler operating only a few times a day to one cycling will last far longer. That is just logical common sense.

Do you think its any surprise most boiler manufacturers dont like their boilers being connected to thermal stores?

Because their control systems can not maintain a constant flow temperature. They wind up and down to maintain a temp differential. They are designed to only operate on rads. Some can maintain a constant flow temp.

Something else which you can do with a normal system is only use the boiler when its needed, rather than keeping a tank warm 24/7 365 days a year which is wasteful, no matter how many coats you put round it.

Again your ignorance of thermal stores shows. Any cylinder has to be kept hot for DHW. Thermal stores are not kept hot 24/7. Most are on time clocks for DHW and CH. Even Gledhills can have the DHW and CH on an external timer. They are connected directly to the pcb.

Again this displays a real lack of knowledge of how sludge is created

Ferrous metals and oxygen. I know exactly how it is formed. "Inihbitor isn't even necessary on sealed systems. Go to Germany and get out your inhibitor and you'll be laughed at." You got that right.

BTW, sealed thermal stores are available.

To some extent yes, most of my dealings are with Gledhill. who as far as i have seen haven't made one decent product. The later systemate design looked much better, but I havent had first hand experience so I can't comment.

I advice you to look at some well designed thermal stores. Gledhill were over 90% of the way there. They let themselves down by not addressing the prime problems. They were not interested in long life, just selling in volume to new builds. The Systemate didn't even require an F&E tank connected to the mains. DPS do some decent stores. I believe they are going to stainless these days.

I do read what you are writing. Who is this george? It seems there are a number of people on here who know heating and water then.

 

[spraggo]

Secondly, the pump for the boiler was a little noisey so BG changed that over the summer. The original was a 15/50 and it was replaced with a 15/60, which I assumed at the time was not an issue.



THere is the possibility that if the pump has been changed to a 15/60 that it is pumping the water through the boiler to fast for it to heat up. especially if you say it is set to 3.

 

[be11aml]

Many thanks for all the help and advice, there has been some very interesting points made above.

It seems that I probably need a new boiler, at least!

I do like the Boilermate and can't really afford an entirely new system. Also, having just done loads of decorating, I really would rather not have the floors up etc.

I am aware of some other posts on here about Thermal stores and condensing boilers, it seems that they can work together, although possibly not in complete harmony.

BG are coming tomorrow to quote for the job and offer the boilers below, which would be my best option?
* Baxi Solo
* Glow-worm Flexicom
* Potterton Promax
* Worcester Bosch Greenstar


Also, any other recommendations? I will be getting some quotes from local heating engineers.

Any further help greatly appreciated

 

[be11aml]

THere is the possibility that if the pump has been changed to a 15/60 that it is pumping the water through the boiler to fast for it to heat up. especially if you say it is set to 3.

I have tried it on all three settings with the same results, the store is not heating quickly enough. After a few cycles of stopping heating and boiler bring up above 60 and cooling etc, it just about managed to keep running with the store at 60-61 degrees