Builder asking for more, second time around.

[frank999]

We have just had a ground floor extension built.

Back in november (two months into the job) the Builder came after us for £8500 more - stating he had under quoted.

He had left one man onsite most of that time, his man was regularly observed swiping his phone drinking tea, instead of working.

We have been paying him every two weeks what he had asked for up to this point.

After asking for the extra, a big bust up ensued, there were no 'extra's' or surprises with the work - and have a thorough understanding of what was required, after an unpleasant conversation/row he dropped the extra down to £2500, which we reluctantly agreed to pay and he then agreed he would finish the job.
He also stated he could work on a weekly basis (which was £1000 per man per week) instead of payment by the job.
However we then negotiated to have a first floor extension, 2 additional ensuites and a kitchen installed, all agreed in writing this time, with what was required listed, and an all in price offered (with us supplying materials), which we haggled a bit on the kitchen, but then agreed to.
Sinice then a similar work pattern existed, some lengthy phone swiping with tea and fag smoking by his man, although the main man has been onsite a lot more.
They both knocked off on Thurs. 19 december, and returned on Tues. 7th.

The second part of the job still has a bit of work to do, but today he tells me he again needs more money, and that this sort of situation is regular in the building trade (ie jobs overrunning, and therefor requiring more money to complete than originally agreed).

I have been in business 30 years, never have I expected my customers to pay for my lack of planning or lack of foresight in quoting.

We have limited funds available to give him, yet need him to finish the job.

However, I like him and want him to come forward on another job later in the year (if he can sotr his estimating out better).

I dont want to have a bust up again, but this unecessary complication and imposition upon us seems wrong, unfair and difficult to manage... who is right, us or the builder.

As a self employed person - should he bear some responsibility if things haven't worked out as (he) planned.

 

[Mottie]

So, you were bitten once, allowed yourself to be bitten again and are planning to be bitten yet another time in the future? Have you never heard of the saying?

 

[frank999]

You make a point, and I could have ordered him offsite back in November, but that would have been a bit reactive, and delayed the job - looking for a replacement.

The work thats completed is to a good standard, and consider him a trust worthy person, despite my negative comments.

The two of them have decades of experience, which comes out in the work.

From what we can see its taking him longer to complete than he thought, so despite all his experience am unsure how he's miscalculated.

Is miscalculation on building schedules a common theme, I get the feeling it is, and when that happens who picks up the cost, the developer or the contractor.

 

[JP_]

How long have they been working to do what exactly?
And what was the quote and what is the current price?
Hard to really say if you're being taken for a ride without knowing what you are buying - you might still be getting a good deal.

 

[Lower]

I have been in business 30 years, never have I expected my customers to pay for my lack of planning or lack of foresight in quoting.

Nail, head.

I dont want to have a bust up again, but this unecessary complication and imposition upon us seems wrong, unfair and difficult to manage... who is right, us or the builder.

If he gave you a fixed price quote for the work and the scope hasn't changed, you are right. If he gave you an estimate and you're paying him a weekly rate for labour, he's potentially in the right, not withstanding his inefficiencies.

As a self employed person - should he bear some responsibility if things haven't worked out as (he) planned.

Yes, he should.

However, if you want the guy to finish the job and you are unable to persuade him to honour his original quote(if it was a quote) you may have to take some financial pain. If that's what its going to take, i'd agree to the extra but only pay him the extra on completion.

i wouldn't use him again though.

 

[frank999]

"However, if you want the guy to finish the job and you are unable to persuade him to honour his original quote(if it was a quote) you may have to take some financial pain. If that's what its going to take, i'd agree to the extra but only pay him the extra on completion."

Thanks for the words, looks how this is going to go, annoyingly, feel bit ripped off.

Had a difficult meeting this afternoon, he doesn't want to take responsibility for mis-calculating, and wants us to cough an extra £3k to finish, which equates to about a week and a halfs worth of work for two of them.

Looks like i need to get a water tight contract written up and agreed for future work, for this sort of situation, any pointers to templates/examples for the building trade would be helpful.

If I had cocked up and was in a similar situation, I would feel embarrassed to ask, and just work the week and a half to keep good will between me and the customer, seems like he doesn't care, just wants a £1000 a week ... even though he had agreed to work on a total job price, not a daily/weekly rate.

I have some other men onsite paid on a daily/weekly rate, seems a lot more straight forward way to work, than being held to ransom.

 

[Mottie]

just wants a £1000 a week ... even though he had agreed to work on a total job price, not a daily/weekly rate.

And you are still considering hiring him again? You’ll just have to expect more of the same then I’m afraid.

 

[frank999]

Umm, your right ... in my years of employing people in other trades - it is unusual for people to change their ways.

So legally ... wondering where he and I stand, no official contract, but there is email correspondemce between us, I sent him an email listing the job in 3 parts, and what was required - not huge detail, but it is a list, and he replied putting in a total figure for each part, I then replied confirming my agreement and for him to do the works.

Would a threat of legal action focus his mind.

Are court records not full of this type of case, builders not fullfilling the agreement they are party to ??

 

[Notch7]

Had a difficult meeting this afternoon, he doesn't want to take responsibility for mis-calculating, and wants us to cough an extra £3k to finish, which equates to about a week and a halfs worth of work for two of them

Ive worked with tradesmen like this.

Building works is so involved its rare for completed works to be the exact spec quoted for. Therein lies the problem.

What happens is some builders underprice to get the work, then get their profit out of overcharged extras or if no extras bkackmail the client by saying 'its £4k more, if you refuse we will not carry on'.

The problem you have is the builder is paid up to date, so he has no incentive to finish the contract to get paid.

What work is left to do? -I personally would tell the builder you dont think you can afforde extra and give yourself some time to see if you can get other people to finish. You need to break free of the blackmail and the only way to do it would be to only agree to payment on completion. But to achieve that you need an alternative so you can call his bluff.

Dont keep on leaving yourself exposed to blackmail, its stressful and unpleasant, you need to end the cycle.

 

[^woody^]

So legally ... wondering where he and I stand, no official contract

Yes you do, he's done work you have paid him and so a legal contract exists. The issue is that the terms of this contract are unknown.

But when terms are unknown a Court will imply terms based on what is equitable. It would not be equitable for him to ask for more money unless there was exta work which was not identified at the time he quoted.

A professional employed to do a job would be expected to quote accurately having studied the imformation avaialable. He has the option to decline to quote, request more information to be able to quote, or allow for all sorts of things and give a high quote to cover him. The one thing he can't do, is quote low and then ask for more money for the very work he has already quoted for.

And never ever pay for more work that is actually done or more materials that are physically on site

 

[Mottie]

I’m assuming that nothing unseen showed up halfway through the job which could not have been anticipated before the job was started? If so, tell him that unless he completes the work he quoted for, you’ll get it finished by someone else and if he fails to pay, you’ll take him to court for it. What exactly has to still be done for £3K?

 

[frank999]

Thanks for those replies, very heplful

Court will imply terms based on what is equitable

ie what is fair ...

He is making me feel like I am being unfair ... which seems unfair in itself.

He told his man to finish here last night, so he is here on his own today, I presume after I told him no more money would be immediately forthcoming until I have decided how I deal with this.

What is left, kitchen to fit, some rendering, 4x floors to fit, sanitary ware in 3 toilets, some electrical fittings to be screwed up and connected, 5 doors, paint on walls, and any snags we spot.

Seems he has been chatting to my men this morning, with whom he is quite friendly, not sure what he's said but they are all asking me when we are finishing, hopefully he is not throwing any mud, my men should know me better than that.

As has been suggested - pay the ransom, and get it done.

Any one employed in such a manner in future should be signed up to a full set of T&C's with a contract, with the consequences of not fullfilling the contract made fully aware to all parties.

 

[Notch7]

What is left, kitchen to fit, some rendering, 4x floors to fit, sanitary ware in 3 toilets, some electrical fittings to be screwed up and connected, 5 doors, paint on walls, and any snags we spot

There is a fair bit there and its a few different trades, mostly a carpenter.

Kitchen fit, 4x floors, 5 doors to fit -carpenter
Rendering -plasterer
Paint - P&D
Sanitary ware - plumber

Thats easily £3k of work, poss more.

Sadly youve been paying him day rate and now he holds all the cards.

The pragmatic way to look at it is whether you had other quotes, because if his total price ends up similar to other prices then youve not been ripped off, although you chose his quote because it was cheaper, he has got himself chosen under false pretences.

 

[frank999]

He and his man have been doing all those tasks (in fact every task) between them, rather than using different trades.

Its twice he has misquoted, second time round I thought I'd established with him that I was not prepared to be given out of the blue surprises, does nothing for ones financial planning onsite.

We have supplied all the materials, and always jumped in the van straight away if he's needed anything.

 

[pilsbury]

Hmmm..... he’s kind of got you over a barrel. Sounds like a dick. You have to be realistic here now you’re nuts deep in this project. The question you need to ask yourself is has the work he’s done equated to what you’ve paid him? If it is there or there about I’d tell him to sling his hook. He sees you as a cash cow. If you feel you’ve paid well over what should have been done, I’d play him at his own game. Tell him you’ve got no more money now but will do in a couple of weeks. You want to see some decent progress. String that along until you tell him to bugger off.

but, you are in a predicament. One thing you can do is never to employ him again or you are a right mug. Certainly imply you’ll have him for new works while he’s there- might encourage him to do more. But for the love of god, don’t get yourself in this mess with him again.