Buying House - Inspection Report Concerns

[FingRinal]

The ESC Guide (I'm sure the ECA would not like their considerable input to be attributed to the NICEIC), has taken the British Standard term 'requires improvement' and changed it to mean Unsatisfactory.

Doesn't it?

In ordinary English, if you said that something was required to be better than it was, you'd probably not be thinking that it was satisfactory...?

If I said that, it isn't what I would mean at all. It would seem that you would though.

Probably?? - in other words not definite.

I don't see a Plain English Crystal Mark attached to BS7671. It is a technical document and as such can not be considered to be 'ordinary' English as so many references, phrases, definitions could not be considered to be ordinary English.

Also, you have missed the meaning of Unsatisfactory. In PIR note 8 you will find the phrase 'overall satisfactory'. This is the same two words to which the Inspector is testifying at the bottom of the Report. So, overall satisfactory means that although some parts may be unsatisfactory, the installation is overall satisfatory. Therefore, the parts which are unsatisfactory, but which are not sufficient individually or collectively to warrant an overall unsatisfactory can be deemed to require improvement.

 

[Pensdown]

Apart from NICEIC members, everyone is free to ignore what NICEIC say.

And members are free to leave at any time.

NIC members can also ignore what the NIC say and contrary to popular belief members don't have to use their pre-printed certificates either.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If I said that, it isn't what I would mean at all. It would seem that you would though.

Probably?? - in other words not definite.

Self evidently not - as if I thought something needed improving I would not also consider it satisfactory, whereas it seems that if you thought something needed improving you might still think it was satisfactory.

Where most people would position themselves I don't know, but I do think it probable that if Joe Bloggs thought something required improving then that would be because in his opinion it was unsatisfactory.

Also, you have missed the meaning of Unsatisfactory. In PIR note 8 you will find the phrase 'overall satisfactory'. This is the same two words to which the Inspector is testifying at the bottom of the Report. So, overall satisfactory means that although some parts may be unsatisfactory, the installation is overall satisfatory. Therefore, the parts which are unsatisfactory, but which are not sufficient individually or collectively to warrant an overall unsatisfactory can be deemed to require improvement.

Indeed, and I realised after I'd made my post that I hadn't distinguished between a single aspect being unsatisfactory and the overall verdict of unsatisfactory. You might reasonably say that, for example, a vertical cable with a gap between supports that was slightly greater than it should be was unsatisfactory, but it would be unreasonable, heading towards outrageous, to rate the entire installation as unsatisfactory because of that.

 

[FingRinal]

If I said that, it isn't what I would mean at all. It would seem that you would though.

Probably?? - in other words not definite.

Self evidently not - as if I thought something needed improving I would not also consider it satisfactory, whereas it seems that if you thought something needed improving you might still think it was satisfactory.

The 'thing' that needs improving is clearly unsatisfactory but that does not mean that everything is overall unsatisfactory.

Where most people would position themselves I don't know, but I do think it probable that if Joe Bloggs thought something required improving then that would be because in his opinion it was unsatisfactory.

Actually, I suspect Joe Bloggs might interpret it as requiring something better as that is what requires improvement might mean in ordinary English to ordinary people in an obsessive 'upgrade' society. But, what it means as regards a PIR is that the item that needs to be improved, needs to be improved. Depending on the item or situation which is required to be improved, it might or might not affect the overall satisfactory or overall unsatisfactory awared by the Inspector.

Also, you have missed the meaning of Unsatisfactory. In PIR note 8 you will find the phrase 'overall satisfactory'. This is the same two words to which the Inspector is testifying at the bottom of the Report. So, overall satisfactory means that although some parts may be unsatisfactory, the installation is overall satisfatory. Therefore, the parts which are unsatisfactory, but which are not sufficient individually or collectively to warrant an overall unsatisfactory can be deemed to require improvement.

Indeed, and I realised after I'd made my post that I hadn't distinguished between a single aspect being unsatisfactory and the overall verdict of unsatisfactory. You might reasonably say that, for example, a vertical cable with a gap between supports that was slightly greater than it should be was unsatisfactory, but it would be unreasonable, heading towards outrageous, to rate the entire installation as unsatisfactory because of that.

So, now imagine how you would feel if your clone turned up at your house and gave you an Unsatisfactory. Then pulled out the ESC Best Practice Guide 4 to support his assessment. And perhaps sent a copy of the PIR and the ESC Guide 4 to the insurance company as requested. Where is that going to leave you?

However, what about the OTHER defects I mentioned? Are you starting to be selective again? The bonding cables pinched at such sharp right angles they must have been done with pliers.

Rather than look for wording which can be used to squeeze more money out of clients (the public), why not look for ways to benefit the client? Why not help the client to comply rather than view them as a cash cow?

 

[Rico2]

A 20A 2,5 radial should cover no more than 50m². What is the floor area served by the sockets on this circuit?

Its only a small one bed cottage (albeit with loft conversion). The PIR indicates that the kitchen sockets are on a separate circuit, so I assume this means that the ring main with the problem serves the remainder - 8 in total (front room 2 (2xdoubles), landing 2 (1xdouble), bedroom 2 (2xdouble), loft 2 (2xdouble). I'm pretty sure these rooms would add up to less than 50m2. Even if they didn't, surely the important thing is how much you've got plugged in?

I'm wondering just how much stuff I would need plugged into the sockets to create a fire risk.

You can't, provided the circuit is properly protected, e.g. a 2.5mm² ring final is OK on a 32A breaker because as mentioned earlier, each socket is supplied by two cables in parallel, so the load is shared between the cables. Not evenly, but it's reckoned that two 27A cables will be OK on a 32A breaker. One 2.5mm² cable, OTOH, is not safe on a 32A breaker, hence the advice if you no longer have a ring to drop it to a 20A one.

Any circuit from the smallest lighting one to one supplying a stonking shower to one running out to the garden for a sauna and hot-tub is designed with the same basic principle that the rating of the cable must be at least as high as the breaker or fuse (this keeps the cable safe) and the breaker or fuse must be at least as high as the design current for the circuit (this stops nuisance tripping). You can read more about that here: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=81696#81696 and http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselection_web.html goes into a lot more detail of cable ratings.

So if your socket circuit is soundly designed, the worst you can do is make the breaker trip or blow the fuse, you can't start a fire.

I think this is the problem though. My understanding is that with the break in the ring, it's acting like a radial - ie the wiring can only carry 22A as opposed to 44A. If I plug enough stuff in to draw say 28A through the circuit, surely the cable would melt before the 32A fuse blows?

 

[SeanT]

Even if they didn't, surely the important thing is how much you've got plugged in?

Not for the purposes of the legislation - the important thing is how much is likely to be plugged in, the circuit should be designed for the likely (not maximum, unless maximum is likely eg. a kitchen) load, and the breaker should be selected according to the rating of the cable it is protecting (it is, after all, only there to protect the cable and therefore the fixed wiring, unless it's a cooker for some reason, then it protects the flex too....)
In the case of the floor area, said cable is derated due to sheer length....

I think this is the problem though. My understanding is that with the break in the ring, it's acting like a radial - ie the wiring can only carry 22A as opposed to 44A. If I plug enough stuff in to draw say 28A through the circuit, surely the cable would melt before the 32A fuse blows?

Doubtful, but it'll get warm, which isn't good - what is more important is what will happen if about 40 amps is drawn (which is unlikely to trip a 30/32 amp breaker, as opposed to a 20 amp one...)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The 'thing' that needs improving is clearly unsatisfactory but that does not mean that everything is overall unsatisfactory.

I agree, which is what I thought I had shown in my clarification - one item which requires improvement, i.e. is not satisfactory, should not mean that the entire collection of items is judged unsatisfactory. I thought, originally, that you were talking about the the rating of one single observation "taken the British Standard term 'requires improvement' and changed it to mean Unsatisfactory". When I realised you meant the overall rating I clarified to point out that I agreed with you.

Actually, I suspect Joe Bloggs might interpret it as requiring something better as that is what requires improvement might mean in ordinary English to ordinary people in an obsessive 'upgrade' society.

Whether rational or not (I need a better car, I require a better televison, the decor in my living room requires improvement) they all indicate that the person saying those things is not satisfied with his current car/television/wallpaper, i.e. to him they are unsatisfactory.

But, what it means as regards a PIR is that the item that needs to be improved, needs to be improved. Depending on the item or situation which is required to be improved, it might or might not affect the overall satisfactory or overall unsatisfactory awared by the Inspector.

As I said - I agree.

So, now imagine how you would feel if your clone turned up at your house and gave you an Unsatisfactory. Then pulled out the ESC Best Practice Guide 4 to support his assessment. And perhaps sent a copy of the PIR and the ESC Guide 4 to the insurance company as requested. Where is that going to leave you?

What on earth do you mean by "my clone"?

However, what about the OTHER defects I mentioned? Are you starting to be selective again? The bonding cables pinched at such sharp right angles they must have been done with pliers.

Not at all - I just couldn't see the point in using more than one example of a situation where one item requiring improvement did not necessarily mean that the whole thing was unsatisfactory.

Maybe your question would be better asked of you than of me - how would I feel if your clone turned up at my house and gave me an Unsatisfactory?

Rather than look for wording which can be used to squeeze more money out of clients (the public), why not look for ways to benefit the client? Why not help the client to comply rather than view them as a cash cow?

Why not, indeed...

 

[FingRinal]

I'm pleased you now see sense BAS. I shall ignore the other trivialities.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've always seen sense - never did agree with the suggestion that one or two Code 2s made an entire installation unsatisfactory...

 

[Rico2]

Even if they didn't, surely the important thing is how much you've got plugged in?

Not for the purposes of the legislation - the important thing is how much is likely to be plugged in, the circuit should be designed for the likely (not maximum, unless maximum is likely eg. a kitchen) load, and the breaker should be selected according to the rating of the cable it is protecting (it is, after all, only there to protect the cable and therefore the fixed wiring, unless it's a cooker for some reason, then it protects the flex too....)
In the case of the floor area, said cable is derated due to sheer length....

I think this is the problem though. My understanding is that with the break in the ring, it's acting like a radial - ie the wiring can only carry 22A as opposed to 44A. If I plug enough stuff in to draw say 28A through the circuit, surely the cable would melt before the 32A fuse blows?

Doubtful, but it'll get warm, which isn't good - what is more important is what will happen if about 40 amps is drawn (which is unlikely to trip a 30/32 amp breaker, as opposed to a 20 amp one...)

Blimey - how much does it take to trip a 32A breaker then? I thought it'd automatically go at 33! How can I work out what sort of current I'll be drawing through the ring main? I don't envisage having loads of high drain appliances plugged in at any one time - only the usual TV/DVD/Video/stereo/PC/lamp etc. The only big thing is the combi boiler.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Blimey - how much does it take to trip a 32A breaker then? I thought it'd automatically go at 33!

Ooh no.

They are required to pass just over 36A indefinitely, and are allowed to pass 46.4A for up to one hour. They don't trip "almost immediately" until 96A...

You should read these:

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=76467#76467

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=81696#81696

How can I work out what sort of current I'll be drawing through the ring main? I don't envisage having loads of high drain appliances plugged in at any one time - only the usual TV/DVD/Video/stereo/PC/lamp etc. The only big thing is the combi boiler.

Don't see why that helps you - if you no longer have a ring on that 32A breaker your problem is not that your load is too great, it's that a single 2.5mm² cable is too small to be protected by a 32A breaker - Ib <= In <= Iz, remember....

 

[SeanT]

The only big thing is the combi boiler.

Physically big yes, but likely to be drawing less current than the average TV or PC!!

 

[333rocky333]

"No continuity to ring main and rn reading is too high compared to r1"

How many conducters had no continuity
I read it as there is continuity on R1

I cannot see how reducing the mcb to 20 amp will help.
It will not create two 20 amp radials
It will be a FAULTY 20amp ring

If there is a faulty connection or cable somewhere, causing high resistance, this fault will still be there.

Surely it needs to be located I would have thought.

 

[333rocky333]

If you find there is no continuity to a ring, one way around expensive investigation work is to treat the circuit as a radial and protect it with a 20 amp MCB. What you have is a V shape circuit, with the Consumer unit at the point of the V.

How would that work if one conducter had continuity though, would you not still need to locate the offending section of cable and isolate it.
So that none of the 3 cores have continuity.

Where would the end of the cores now be to test , this new formed V shape circuit.
The live core would start and still end at the mcb.
The N would start at the board and end ? where the fault is.

 

[lazygit]

Blimey - how much does it take to trip a 32A breaker then? I thought it'd automatically go at 33!

The rating shown on a fuse or MCB is the maximum load that will NOT cause the device to trip- if that makes sense