Buying House - Inspection Report Concerns

[Rico2]

Hi all

Am in the process of buying a house at the moment. Small late Victorian mid terrace. On the advice of my Homebuyers Report, I have had a PIR carried out by a NICEIC registered electrician. This has unfortunately picked up 27 problems! - many of which have been given either a '1' or '2' in terms of priority.

The spark has told me that he reckons the wiring is a bit of a botch job, done by an over enthusiatic DIYer. He's recommended a complete rewire therefore.

I'm not sure whether or not to take him at his word. I know that as a NICEIC registed electrician, he has to comment with regard to current standards. I've done quite a lot of research in order to understand what the individual problems actually mean therefore. For example, I've concluded that the lack of continuity to first floor lighting is probably OK so long as I stick with plastic light fittings. I am struggling with one particular reference though. This is:

"No continuity to ring main and rn reading is too high compared to r1"

This relates specifically to Distribution Board 1, Circuit 1, which is designated Sockets.

Can anyone shed any light on this, and give me an opinion on whether I need to get it sorted ASAP?

Cheers

 

[Steve]

A ring main consists of a 32 amp circuit protective device (MCB) at source, and 2.5mm² cable run in a ring, calling at as many sockets and FCUs as you desire, such that there is always two cores terminating at each terminal in each accessory.

It is essential to maintain continuity of the 2.5mm² cable, since it is rated at 27 amps, optimum. For arguements sake, we'll say an average derated 2.5mm² cable is 22 amps.

Because the protective device is 32 amps, you start to see why its essential to maintain continuity, as there is effectively two cables serving each accessory.

If you find there is no continuity to a ring, one way around expensive investigation work is to treat the circuit as a radial and protect it with a 20 amp MCB. What you have is a V shape circuit, with the Consumer unit at the point of the V.

Lack of continuity on a lighting circuit sounds odd - lighting is a radial circuit. If live or neutral fail, you have no lights. If earth fails, you have a potentially dangerous installation.

What other items are on the list?


As an aside, there is no better or cheaper time to rewire than before you move in.

 

[ricicle]

A ring main consists of a 32 amp circuit protective device (MCB) at source, and 2.5mm² cable run in a ring, calling at as many sockets and FCUs as you desire, such that there is always two cores terminating at each terminal in each accessory.

.

Not necessarily an MCB at source, and I think you mean cables not cores Steve

 

[Rico2]

Thanks Steve. Sorry - meant earth continuity to first floor lighting. As regards the continuity to the ring main, can I assume then, that there is a break somewhere in the ring main serving the sockets? If so, will this run a serious risk of overloading?

The Circuit Details are:

DB1, Circuit 1: Sockets
DB1, Circuit 2: Ex immersion Heater
DB1, Circuit 3: Lights
DB1, Circuit 4: Cooker

DB2, Circuit 1: Kitchen Sockets
DB2, Circuit 2: Shower

There were a fair few 'missing grommet' types problems picked up in the 27 I referred to, which I won't bother mentioning. The more significant ones though were as follows:

Code 1:

No rccb/rcbo protection to socket outlets (DB1, Cct 1+4)
Main equipotential bonding connection to gas service could not be located
No earth continuity to first floor lighting
Cables are not installed in designated areas (DB1, Cct4)
No rccb/rcbo protection to socket outlets (DB2, Cct1)
No supplementary bonding to bathroom
After testing this circuit was disconnected as it was found to be unsafe (DB1, Cct2) (assume this is Code 1 - no code was given)

Code 2:

DB 2 fed from incoming terminals of DB1 and connection is inadequate
Main equipotential bonding connection to the water service is in the wrong position
3 core and earth cable has been used with the 3rd core either cut off or not terminated correctly (DB1, Cct3)
No earth sleeving to earth cores at switches or ceiling roses (DB1, Cct3)
No earth sleeving to earth core at mains board (DB1, Cct4)
Faulty back box to single socket (DB2, Cct1)
No earth sleeving to earth cores at shower (Db2, Cct2)


I've been quoted £1100 to sort all the above, with the exception of the 'no continuity to ring main' issue I mentioned before, and the 'no earth continuity to first floor lighting'. He's suggested he'll try to remedy those at the cost of £26/hour, but can't guarantee he can sort it. I think, probably because of this, he's recommending a full rewire at £1800.

 

[ColJack]

a "no rccb/rcbo protection" is NOT a code 1.. no way.. especially given the age of the install..
at most it's a code 3 and maybe even a code 4.. "does not comply with BS7671: 2001 amended to 2004.. ".. there is no specific regulation that says you must install an RCD/RCBO to an existing installation..

I'd also question whether the lack of earthing to the lighting circuit constitutes a code 1 also.. with some existing cables there simply isn't an earth in it in the first place..

having said that, due to the problems highlighted, it would be a very good idea to cut your losses and have the place re-wired.. it means starting with a clean slate and peace of mind..

the cost can be negotiated off the price of the house and would be best done before you moved in due to the amount of dust / disruption that it causes and it might even be a little cheaper if it's a vacant site.. ( no need to get power back on every night and put all the floorboards back.. meaning a saving of at least a day on the job.. )

it does however problably mean that you will have to re-decorate nearly every room but if it's not perfect already then I'm sure the GLW will have her sights set on that anyway..

 

[Spark123]

Sockets not on RCD code 3 [Requires further investigation]
The PIR is to current standards, these standards require sockets reasonably expected to supply portable equipment outdoors to be RCD protected. No RCD for those sockets = code 1 or 2 depending on the installation.
Break in CPC is also imo a code 1 as the method of protection against indirect contact (EEBADS) is affected.

 

[ColJack]

there is no legal obligation to bring an install up to the current regulations as long as the install was done to the relavent standard at the time, and that the cables are still adequate in terms of resistance values and insulation resistance..
if there was then we'd all be screwed into buying new cu's / rcbos in the next few months to cover the new regs..

any new work has to be done to current regs at which point the relavent circuit would need to comply so adding a new socket would mean you had to put an rcd on the circuit..

 

[Spark123]

When a PIR is carried out it is comparing the installation to the current standard.

any new work has to be done to current regs at which point the relavent circuit would need to comply so adding a new socket would mean you had to put an rcd on the circuit..

You could install a socket with a built in RCD if needed, however you must ensure the existing apparatus (including that of the distrubutors) is suitable for the additional load and the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate.

 

[Taylortwocities]

You havent said how big the house is but bite his hand off if he'll do a full rewire for £1800.

 

[lazygit]

Here is a direct quote from page 109 of the Electricians guide to the Building Regulations (Published bt the IEE):-

Code 1:

Broken equipment where live parts are exposed
No earth connection at origin
Use of water or gass pipe as means of earthing
Double pole fusing
RCD that does not operate when the test button is pressed
No CPC in one or more lighting circuits with class 1 light fittings
Incorrect polarity

Code 2:

No RCD for socket outlest likely to supply portable equipment outdoors
No main equipotential bonding
No supplementary bonding in bathroom
No CPC in one or more lighting circuits with class 1 light fittings

Code 3:

Not normally applicable to domestic installations where necassary information on the equipment in normally readily available

Code 4:

Main bonding conductor size 6mm in TN-C-S installation
Bathroom supplementary bonding does not include lighting circuits with class 2 fittings
Voltage operated earth leakage trip installed

I guess you have to bear in mind that the NICEIC have their own set of rules

 

[ltheb]

Get this guy back! He may just save someone's life! No-one has commented on the bonding issues here either. It is written in bold type on the back of certificates that if main and supplementary bonding is missing work must cease until this is rectified! No RCD's ?? Why justify lack of compliance when (1) they may just prevent someone from getting a shock or (2) the 17th edn will require RCB/RCBO's on all circuits anyway.
Get your man back, get the rewire done! If he charges you £1800/£26 per hour, buy him a drink coz I would charge more!! Don't forget, while you may understand plastic accs are ok on lighting circuit without cpc, the next punter may not. I quote a customer who said ' we were getting a shock off the new (metal) switches - I thought it was because they were new. ( There was no cpc and the live conductore was touching the plate!)

 

[ebee]

Tin hat on.

No main bonding I`d code 1.
No supp bond
No RCD probably code 2 rarely code 1 imho.
No cpc on lights, code 1 if metal fittings, code 2 if plastic.
Broken ring code 1.
Code3 = requires investigation = could be a 1 or 2 (or 4),
the price might well be very reasonable depending upon the size and layout, points required etc.
In an ideal world you`d get one guy to do the PIR only and someone else to do the install only. That`s not to say you can`t trust this guy but it`s the way I work (I don`t do PIRs = almost never) so it`s seen to be above board. I`d ideally do the same with car MOTs.
PIRs are subjective to some degree.
As I said, hat on

 

[ltheb]

there is no legal obligation to bring an install up to the current regulations as long as the install was done to the relavent standard at the time, and that the cables are still adequate in terms of resistance values and insulation resistance..
if there was then we'd all be screwed into buying new cu's / rcbos in the next few months to cover the new regs..

any new work has to be done to current regs at which point the relavent circuit would need to comply so adding a new socket would mean you had to put an rcd on the circuit..

You worry me! Ok maybe 'no obligation' but we've got not earth continuity to the lighting so there goes the bonding in the bathroom... we've got a fault on the ring (DB1 sockets) so let's play russian roulette with the extension lead out to the garden... And I'm just guessing that the tails to DB2 are 10 or 16mm (inadequate connection) with maybe 45amps of shower plus 32amps of kitchen ring. I pay £22 +vat for an rcbo. Why cut corners? Get the spark back (looks like a consciencious PIR to me) and but some peace of mind.

 

[Rico2]

Thanks for the advice guys. Reckon I'll go for a full rewire and try to negotiate a reduction in the price of the house. It's only a little 1 bedroomed terrace - so £1800 probably sounds about right.

What I'm wondering though, is whether this can be done without serious damage to the plaster? It's old, lath and plaster walls. Am I looking at full replastering as well do you reckon, if I have a full rewire, or can it be done with minimal damage to plasterwork? I'm assuming the £1800 quote won't include making good the plaster afterwards.

 

[Taylortwocities]

if I have a full rewire, or can it be done with minimal damage to plasterwork? I'm assuming the £1800 quote won't include making good the plaster afterwards.

It depends on how the wiring is done. If you are lucky then there may be existing conduit or wide enough capping and the new wiring can be pulled in to the existing cable runs. Sometimes you can do it with little or no damage, its rare that it works all the time. Quite often you will want more points or in different places so you'll be in for chasing out of plaster.

You'd have to ask about making good. Some sparks do.