Buying House - Inspection Report Concerns

[securespark]

I'd also question whether the lack of earthing to the lighting circuit constitutes a code 1 also

It is if you have Class I fittings, surely?

Edit. Sorry, posted without reading full thread..

 

[ebee]

Downside.
Eggs/omletes situation,
yes it makes a mess, it really does!
However,
with crafty planning - ganging lightswitches together in to common areas (hallway/landing) often reduces this to a large extent (you`ve gotta balance this aspect with the practicallities for the end user and not cause confusion by their positioning).
Then , exept where sockets are drop fed, the only evidence in most rooms is from the floor to sockets.
Like I said , crafty planning might reduce the mess somewhat.
Good luck

 

[ColJack]

You worry me! Ok maybe 'no obligation' but we've got not earth continuity to the lighting so there goes the bonding in the bathroom...

quite the jump you made there.. at no point does it say there is no earth in the bathroom light, just that there is no earth continuity upstairs.. the break / missing earth may just be between the 2 bedroom light that are the last 2 on the circuit.. we have no way of knowing ..
also, bonding is to tie all earth sources to the same potential.. if the light has no earth, then how is it introducing an earth potential?

we've got a fault on the ring (DB1 sockets) so let's play russian roulette with the extension lead out to the garden...

we are talking about the lack of RCD protection to an existing circuit.. the fault is an entirely different problem that needs sorting anyway..
many people use plug in rcd adapters if their wiring is old.., and some extension leads come with them built in.. there are lots of options..

And I'm just guessing that the tails to DB2 are 10 or 16mm (inadequate connection) with maybe 45amps of shower plus 32amps of kitchen ring.

16mm² singles ref method 1 is 87A.. given the age of the install then I'd guess at an 80A main fuse at most... ( yes they ought to be 25mm, or even better a larger, newer split load board fitted )

I pay £22 +vat for an rcbo. Why cut corners? Get the spark back (looks like a consciencious PIR to me) and but some peace of mind.

absolutley.. given the number and type of faults recorded then a rewire seems like a good idea..
the new split load board would cure lots of the problems listed ( I'll hazard a guess and say that the old board will be a 4 way wylex jobbie, with a second board tagged on at a later date.. you generally can't get RCBO's to fit older boards.. )

 

[Rico2]

Hi all

I've now bought the house - but am waiting until this electrical stuff is resolved before I can move in! Spark is not returning my calls - obviously doesn't need the work. Very frustrating I'm afraid.

Given these problems, I'm wondering whether I can get away without the full rewire. I think the main issue comes back to the lack of continuity to the ring main. Steve suggested that I could get around this by installing a 20A fuse/mcb in place of the 32A standard on ring mains. This seems like a logical solution to me. Are there any drawbacks to this? I'm wondering just how much stuff I would need plugged into the sockets to create a fire risk. Am I right in thinking that the standards were worked out on a worst case scenario basis - ie storage heaters plugged into every socket.

Any views gratefully received.

 

[daytona]

Hi all

I've now bought the house - but am waiting until this electrical stuff is resolved before I can move in! Spark is not returning my calls - obviously doesn't need the work. Very frustrating I'm afraid.

Given these problems, I'm wondering whether I can get away without the full rewire. I think the main issue comes back to the lack of continuity to the ring main. Steve suggested that I could get around this by installing a 20A fuse/mcb in place of the 32A standard on ring mains. This seems like a logical solution to me. Are there any drawbacks to this? I'm wondering just how much stuff I would need plugged into the sockets to create a fire risk. Am I right in thinking that the standards were worked out on a worst case scenario basis - ie storage heaters plugged into every socket.

Any views gratefully received.

no,complex document that bs7671 is,its still only a MINIMUM standard.

given that you may well do the house up over time(kitchen bathroom etc)

it would be a shame to have to rip it all out when it goes belly up.get it rewired and sleep sound

 

[securespark]

A 20A 2,5 radial should cover no more than 50m². What is the floor area served by the sockets on this circuit?

 

[SeanT]

Code 1:

Main equipotential bonding connection to gas service could not be located

Ain't being funny here, but surely it's either there or not, I wouldn't expect to pay for a report that says, "I can't find where the gas goes, or that bit of earth wire that may or may not go to it"....

 

[Spark123]

A 20A 2,5 radial should cover no more than 50m². What is the floor area served by the sockets on this circuit?

Hopefully not the kitchen too.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm wondering just how much stuff I would need plugged into the sockets to create a fire risk.

You can't, provided the circuit is properly protected, e.g. a 2.5mm² ring final is OK on a 32A breaker because as mentioned earlier, each socket is supplied by two cables in parallel, so the load is shared between the cables. Not evenly, but it's reckoned that two 27A cables will be OK on a 32A breaker. One 2.5mm² cable, OTOH, is not safe on a 32A breaker, hence the advice if you no longer have a ring to drop it to a 20A one.

Any circuit from the smallest lighting one to one supplying a stonking shower to one running out to the garden for a sauna and hot-tub is designed with the same basic principle that the rating of the cable must be at least as high as the breaker or fuse (this keeps the cable safe) and the breaker or fuse must be at least as high as the design current for the circuit (this stops nuisance tripping). You can read more about that here: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=81696#81696 and http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselection_web.html goes into a lot more detail of cable ratings.

So if your socket circuit is soundly designed, the worst you can do is make the breaker trip or blow the fuse, you can't start a fire.

given that you may well do the house up over time(kitchen bathroom etc)

it would be a shame to have to rip it all out when it goes belly up.get it rewired and sleep sound

Sound advice, Rico - now is the time to do it - it will never be any easier or less disruptive or cheaper. If you can let the electrician loose in an empty house he can do the job quicker - no f@rting around restoring or maintaining power, replacing floorboards each night, moving furniture etc, and he can use power tools for sinking holes for boxes and for making chases, which aren't practical in occupied and furnished homes because of the obscene amounts of dust they make.

Think hard about where to have sockets - it's difficult to have too many, and also about what circuits to have. The items on the list below won't all apply to you, but they are worth thinking about:

• Upstairs sockets
• Downstairs sockets
• Kitchen sockets
• Radial for appliances
• Cooker circuit
• Non-RCD circuit for F/F
• Non-RCD circuit for CH boiler
• Dedicated circuit for hifi
• Dedicated circuit for IT equipment
• Upstairs lights
• Downstairs lights
• Immersion heater
• Loft lights
• Shower
• Bathroom circuit
• Alarm
• Supply for outside lights
• Supply for garden electrics
• Supply for shed/garage

Plus any peculiarities brought about by your house layout & construction - e.g. in mine because of solid floors and where the rings run, I have a radial just for a socket in the hall, the doorbell and the porch lights.

Plus a few spares on RCD & non-RCD sides for expansion beyond that for future unforeseen needs.

Consider also specifying a CU with separate sections, not a split-load, to increase the granularity of RCD protection, or the extensive use of RCBOs on a per-circuit basis.

Good idea to have all the wiring in the walls done in conduit for ease of future changes.

Do you want the place networked, for PC & peripheral LAN access and audio/video distribution?

If you live somewhere where supplies are dodgy in the winter, have the lights, the boiler supply, and a socket in each room wired to a separate CU, or a separate section in a large one, that can be supplied by an emergency generator - lights, heating, TV and a kettle/microwave make life a lot more bearable.

 

[FingRinal]

Code 1:

Main equipotential bonding connection to gas service could not be located

Ain't being funny here, but surely it's either there or not, I wouldn't expect to pay for a report that says, "I can't find where the gas goes, or that bit of earth wire that may or may not go to it"....

This is where you would look at the MET and look for the presence of a main bond. If it looks for example like there is 1x16mm plus 2x10mmm, there is an indication that main bonding may be present. Next a long wander lead test should be undertaken with both the 10mm cables disconnected from the MET and both tested to accessible cold water pipes. One might test fine if it is connected somewhere. Based on the test results, we might be able to state that main bond appears to be connected, it appears to test ok but can not be located. We can then either give it a Code 3 (requires futher investigation) or give it no code if the test is perfect. Personally, I would be inclined to give it a Code 3 and provide a suitable observation comment.

 

[baldelectrician]

copy of my post from ultimate handyman post

Me thinks he is being a bit over zealous

NICIEC own best pracice guide to Periodic Inspection Reporting

http://www.niceic.org.uk/other-downloads/nroot/niceic/other-downloads/bestprac-pir.pdf

 

[FingRinal]

The ESC Guide (I'm sure the ECA would not like their considerable input to be attributed to the NICEIC), has taken the British Standard term 'requires improvement' and changed it to mean Unsatisfactory. Either they are pursuing a policy of extorting remedials out of the poor unsuspecting public, or they (the NICEIC) admit their members aren't up to carrying out PIRs and need to enforce an over zealous approach to reduce their own exposure to their members liability.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

. . .

 

[333rocky333]

I could get around this by installing a 20A fuse/mcb in place of the 32A standard on ring mains. This seems like a logical solution to me. Are there any drawbacks to this?

Any views gratefully received.

If it was already two bunched radials then it may be ok.

If it was a ring and the wiring was faulty causing the readings,
Surely the wiring will still be faulty just with a smaller fuse/mcb.
Which I think is not ideal

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The ESC Guide (I'm sure the ECA would not like their considerable input to be attributed to the NICEIC), has taken the British Standard term 'requires improvement' and changed it to mean Unsatisfactory.

Doesn't it?

In ordinary English, if you said that something was required to be better than it was, you'd probably not be thinking that it was satisfactory...?

I think it comes down to the inferences people make when they give, or read, ratings. How many of us are guilty, when filling in surveys, or looking at the results of them, of thinking that "adequate" is a criticism?

"How was your meal, sir"?

"It was adequate."

If you think about it logically, when you factor in price, the expectations you have of a restaurant based on reputation etc, you can't expect more than, or complain of you don't get more than, "adequate".

"How was your meal, sir"?

"It was satisfactory."

If you're satisfied, you can't reasonably expect it to be done better. Conversely if you think it should be improved on you can't reasonably say you were satisfied with it.

Either they are pursuing a policy of extorting remedials out of the poor unsuspecting public, or they (the NICEIC) admit their members aren't up to carrying out PIRs and need to enforce an over zealous approach to reduce their own exposure to their members liability.

Apart from NICEIC members, everyone is free to ignore what NICEIC say.

And members are free to leave at any time.