What do you mean by that? Are you aware of any electrical 'regs' more 'up-to-date' than BS 7671:2018 (I've yet to hear of any Amendments) ?
Kind Regards, John
C2 downlights without hoods
- Thread starter AndyPRK
- Start date
Kind Regards, John
Sponsored Links
- Joined
- 16 Sep 2007
- Messages
- 1,902
- Reaction score
- 161
- Country
Beware of "books"
Kind Regards, John
Ah, like this classic https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-Explanation-Earthed-Equipotential-Bonding/dp/1449041612
Ah. The infamous D.W.Cockburn.
Haven't heard of him for a while.
Haven't heard of him for a while.
Sponsored Links
- Joined
- 27 Jan 2008
- Messages
- 23,668
- Reaction score
- 2,667
- Location
- Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
- Country
Is fire detection and prevention now part of an electricians duties and training? The problem is if you try and do fire prevention and miss something like wrong type of door, then your fault, better to make it very plain the EICR is about Electrical installation not anything else.
In the same way a surveyors buyers report should not include electrics or it can be considered an EICR.
In the same way a surveyors buyers report should not include electrics or it can be considered an EICR.
Have to say his explanation of the hazards of neon screwdrivers is one of the best
Page 2 of his book on Google Books LINK
Yet again .... NO. An EICR is about the electrical installation and it's compliance with BS7671 - and nothing more than that.
Kind Regards, John
- Joined
- 27 Jan 2008
- Messages
- 23,668
- Reaction score
- 2,667
- Location
- Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
- Country
Take it to the extreme then work back, so a shepherds retreat on the mountain side in Wales with no electricity supply, will it pass an EICR? Nothing complies with BS7671 as there is nothing to comply. However to the question is the potential danger clearly the answer is no. So there can be no C2 raised.
So next we have an old property with its own generator, installed 1923 shall we say, not been used in years, the engine is totally seized solid so will not run, and no national grid supply, the wiring is in one hell of a state, but in real terms it is the same as the shepherds retreat, there is nothing which can cause a potential danger so no C2 raised, or is there?
Well we test circuits, and the first question has to be can the circuit be turned on without a tool or key, so fundamental but if it can't be switches on without a tool or key then can we even give it an F1? But the same applies to a locked room, and of course same applies to locked house, so now we look at if it is likely to be used in the future. So maybe the garage can be locked, maybe there is no access to loft, common with terraced houses to have only one house in terrace with a hatch.
In the past it really did not matter, we could give it a F1 and that was the end of that. But an F1 is considered as a fail, but really it depends on what and why an F1 is given.
When the government introduced the MOT they did not say the vehicle must be serviced by some one with level 3 training in the subject and insurance of £x they laid out exactly what should be tested.
So back to BS7671 "a luminaire shall be kept at an adequate distance from Combustible materials." and "Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer, a small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials: (i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m"
So tell me what floor has 0.5 meters between ceiling and floor above? It does not say this is reduced is a fire hood is fitted, or do we actually have any manufacturers instructions to say if permitted or not with an EICR, we may have those instructions when fitting them, but by time it comes to an inspection they have gone, as to integrity of a fire barrier, we simply don't have the training to know if a danger or not. We also know with a 7.5 watt LED it is highly unlikely to cause a fire, but regulations simply say up to 100 watt, nothing about 3.5 watt LED.
So down to nitty gritty we are not fire prevention officers, be it a ceiling light without hood or a plastic consumer unit we are not qualified to say if potential danger or not, and with lack of manufacturers instructions we only have two classes we can use, C3 or F1, where F1 is really passing the investigation to some one who is trained in fire prevention, to date as far as I am aware it is not required before renting?
So next we have an old property with its own generator, installed 1923 shall we say, not been used in years, the engine is totally seized solid so will not run, and no national grid supply, the wiring is in one hell of a state, but in real terms it is the same as the shepherds retreat, there is nothing which can cause a potential danger so no C2 raised, or is there?
Well we test circuits, and the first question has to be can the circuit be turned on without a tool or key, so fundamental but if it can't be switches on without a tool or key then can we even give it an F1? But the same applies to a locked room, and of course same applies to locked house, so now we look at if it is likely to be used in the future. So maybe the garage can be locked, maybe there is no access to loft, common with terraced houses to have only one house in terrace with a hatch.
In the past it really did not matter, we could give it a F1 and that was the end of that. But an F1 is considered as a fail, but really it depends on what and why an F1 is given.
When the government introduced the MOT they did not say the vehicle must be serviced by some one with level 3 training in the subject and insurance of £x they laid out exactly what should be tested.
So back to BS7671 "a luminaire shall be kept at an adequate distance from Combustible materials." and "Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer, a small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials: (i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m"
So tell me what floor has 0.5 meters between ceiling and floor above? It does not say this is reduced is a fire hood is fitted, or do we actually have any manufacturers instructions to say if permitted or not with an EICR, we may have those instructions when fitting them, but by time it comes to an inspection they have gone, as to integrity of a fire barrier, we simply don't have the training to know if a danger or not. We also know with a 7.5 watt LED it is highly unlikely to cause a fire, but regulations simply say up to 100 watt, nothing about 3.5 watt LED.
So down to nitty gritty we are not fire prevention officers, be it a ceiling light without hood or a plastic consumer unit we are not qualified to say if potential danger or not, and with lack of manufacturers instructions we only have two classes we can use, C3 or F1, where F1 is really passing the investigation to some one who is trained in fire prevention, to date as far as I am aware it is not required before renting?
This is getting rather silly. If there is no electrical installation, then it is obviously impossible for an inspection of the non-existent installation to be undertaken or for an Electrical Installation Condition Report to be produced.
Again, whether or not there are potential dangers, that's nothing to do with EICRs or EICR 'codes' if there is no electrical installation.
Still rather silly. The only reason why anyone would commission an EICR is if they were contemplating using the electrical installation, even if it had not been used for years and did not currently have an electricity supply- and, in that situation, the inspection and reporting should presumably be the same as it would be for any electrical installation - although there would obviously be limitations on what testing could be done if there were no electrical supply.
I didn't know that it has ever been different, since I can't see how one could ever give a 'satisfactory' ('pass') overall assessment in the presence of one or more FIs - since an F1 means that there may be a C1 or C2, but that has not yet been determined.
We've been through this one before (and you might have added that for 300-500W, that minimum distance becomes 1 metre!), and at least some of us suspect that it's a very badly worded regulation, which was meant to say that a luminaire (i.e. the radiated light/head from it) should not be 'pointed at' combustible materials within the specified distance (which would make some sense). As written, it makes little/no sense, since what is special about a luminaire? If it meant what you are assuming it to mean, why would there not be a similar regulation forbidding any electrical equipment which dissipated any amount of power (note that 'up to 100W' has no lower bound) being within 0.5m of combustible materials?? !
As so often, what is needed is a bit of common sense, rather than an obsessive desire to comply with regulations (particularly when those regulations are poorly written).
Kind Regards, John
A fire hood is installed to prevent the spread of fire, not to prevent a light from causing a fire.
The only time fire rated fittings or standard fittings with fire hoods are required is when you have breached a fire compartment to install them.
A standard two storey house is a single fire compartment.
The only time fire rated fittings or standard fittings with fire hoods are required is when you have breached a fire compartment to install them.
A standard two storey house is a single fire compartment.
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
