Ca'moron said...

[JBR]

I decided to research this matter (it was quite quick and easy, actually) and am obliged to admit that I was completely wrong. Please read this, which explains the matter fully:

https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887

Consequently, I am pleased to admit that our nett contributions to the EU are actually ONLY £33 million per day.

I'd still like to know whether it is good value for money, though. What do we get for that?

But we still give them £55 million.

Yes, but they are very generous people and give us £22 million back. We should be so grateful.

 

[JBR]

I'd still like to hear what the advantages are of our remaining a member of the EU. Perhaps one of our europhiles could enlighten me.

I've said in my previous post that on balance I'd vote out but I think you deserve an answer .
To be fair several of the things PCB listed can also be viewed as positives as much as negatives , the employment legislation and environmental protection laws for example. Business is allegedly smoothed and trade is easier although I would have to take others word for it as I rarely work more than ten miles from home let alone across the continent . From what I saw on a BBC4 report on Norway , Switzerland , and Iceland their being out of the EU but still closely trading has resulted in their having to adopt many EU laws without having any input plus a similar financial outgoing that we have. Being in has kept us free of some of the worst of US cooperate laws although again the EU seems to in the process of warming to TTIP . At least with the power of veto its implementation could be at least delayed.
With regards to simple money terms we of course get grants etc from the EU , we've all seen those " funded by the EU " signs but without goggling the figures I can't say how much of a dent it makes in that £33M . The BBC report also said that benefits to EU migrants ( it may have been just working tax credits rather than all benefits ) costs us £230M a year so if our wonderful PM negotiated a single weeks rebate that would cover on of the most talked about points of our membership.
It should also of course be mentioned that one of the original aims was a safer Europe which of course it seems to have done . We haven't laid waste to huge tracts of land and slaughtered a generation ( well not on a continental scale ) since 1945 .

Employment legislation and environmental protection laws - Perhaps that is something that we cannot manage on our own?

Business smoothed and trade eased - We used to manage that before we were under the jackboot, both with European countries and the rest of the world.

Grants from the EU - I've already explained, we pay in £55 million a day and get £22 million back in grants.

A safer Europe - Membership of NATO achieved that.

So is there anything worthwhile we get for our 'contributions'?

 

[JBR]

Norway has to pay the EU but much less than us, per person, and it does not have to obey EU laws, but it does have to obey EU regulations on exported goods, and pay export tariffs, then again it can charge import tariffs. And it has to allow free movement of people from the EU. Whether EU immigrants can claim benefits I know not. I would vote for leaving, but we will all vote to stay in, without doubt.

No we won't.
I certainly won't and I suspect that, the way things are going, a majority won't.
I hope I'm right.

 

[ladylola]

Well I did say on balance I'd vote out and came up with that because I said you deserved an answer. People such as the CBI seem really keen on us stopping in so really one of them should have answered you.

 

[JBR]

Well I did say on balance I'd vote out and came up with that because I said you deserved an answer. People such as the CBI seem really keen on us stopping in so really one of them should have answered you.

I'm afraid that the CBI don't read our words of wisdom.

 

[ladylola]

The trade part is useful. ALL the rest of it is BS.
All it does is gives us another mega expensive layer of bureaucracy. Which in turn gives us unwanted laws and rules.
As always with left wing organisations it's full of "good ideas" that turn into expensive mistakes when implemented.
Get rid of it. Give us our bloody country back and let's go back to making our own way in the world.
The thing that always seems to be ignored in this "Lets us trade with Europe" excuse, is that it's a two way thing. It lets them trade with us too! Look at all the European brands that are advertised here these days.
I reckon we've been taken for mugs in this country for too bloody long.

Irony here is that while many of the original ideas were from well meaning socialist types they have been got rid of as the EU has morphed into what it is today , a much more un democratic fascist organisation . Just look at the reactions to Syriza in Greece and the Portuguese left wingers http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...rtugals-anti-euro-Left-banned-from-power.html .
Another irony there is support for those left wingers would see further pressure for dismantling of much of the EU .
Ultimately I tend to think the EU is on a downward spiral and will collapse wether we are part of it or not. Either way won't be smooth and it comes down to a "better of two evils" type of question with regards to the referendum .

 

[longdogs]

I reckon if we left the EU, the EU would crumble as many others would follow.

Good! F*ck the lot of 'em.

 

[WalksWithTurkeys]

If I looked at a company that was desperately trying to reduce it's costs but its borrowings were still spiralling, whilst at the same time it was losing skilled, high value employees and replacing them with subsidised, cheap labour - I would think that it was a company that's on the skids.

When will we be paying down our national debt?

You didn't answer the question. How do we pay off the debt earlier?

As to your question, by about 2020 the deficit will be gone and we will be paying off the debt. Oh and the debt is not spiralling.

 

[joe-90]

No of course it

isn't.

 

[joe-90]

Crisis? What crisis?

 

[PBC_1966]

The trade part is useful. ALL the rest of it is BS.
All it does is gives us another mega expensive layer of bureaucracy. Which in turn gives us unwanted laws and rules.

Trade and that it's easier to decide to pack up and go to live and work somewhere else within the EU (although still not quite as straightforward as they might have you believe).

The supposed easier trading with other EU countries comes with a downside as well though, in the form of all the petty regulations which exist, supposedly, to provide that "level playing field" by way of "harmonization," a phrase that the EU likes to tout at every opportunity. The other thing the EU shouts about a lot is the "open market," when in reality what the EU wants is a very tightly controlled and regulated market where every single thing sold must conform to EU Directives, not just for sale across borders but even when it's manufactured, sold, and used entirely within one country. The "free trade" within the EU has also brought with it horrendously complex VAT reporting for companies selling to other EU countries, not to mention the fact that the EU is destroying the ability of its member countries to trade freely with any other country they wish which is outside the EU. The U.K. cannot now, for example, decide to enter into a mutually beneficial trade agreement with the U.S.A., Canada, or New Zealand because EU regulations insist that all members have to follow the EU's own import tariffs for trade with the rest of the world.

But even if we ignore all of these shortcomings, the fact is that if we want easier trade across borders or to make it easier to go and live and work in another country, neither requires the addition of the EU's level of bureaucracy and a cost of millions per day to make it happen. All it would need is a reciprocal agreement between the countries concerned made by their existing national governments - Just as used to happen in the past with trade agreements.

Or for free movement of people, look at what happened when the Irish Free State was created with the split from the U.K. in the 1920's. All it took was a simple agreement between the U.K. government and the new Irish government that Irish citizens would be free to live and work in the U.K. without restriction and vice versa.

 

[JBR]

Well said, PBC.
It's a shame that more people can't see the sense in that.