Central Heating Nightmare - Please help me!

the relief pipe goes through the wall into the bathroom, along under the bath and out of the wall into the garden. It comes out of the wall about two bricks up and kind of bends down and back on itself a bit.

Am I supposed to get a condensing boiler? Have I done something bad by having the combi boiler fitted? I am getting confused again as to what I should do! At first it seemed simple because he had just trashed my house and I was upset, but now it seems a lot more involved, and i assume he is fitting these in other houses too and that is wrong.
 
well it tells me the boiler has not been commissioned in accordance with the manufacturers instructions nor is it fitted in accordance with the building regs,unless its scotland/iom/ni etc,but hey who lives in a perfect world.
 
He would have had to carry out an assessment procedure at your property if he intended to fit a standard boiler, you should have a copy of that form.




Purpose of the assessment procedure:-
Where installation of a condensing boiler is expected to be difficult, an assessment should be carried out to see if a non-condensing boiler would be accepted as reasonable provision in the circumstances.

In this case a correctly completed form (set out in Appendix G of the revised Approved Document L1) is used to show whether or not exceptional circumstances apply. It is not necessary to complete the form if a condensing boiler with efficiency in SEDBUK band A or B is to be fitted.The assessment gives a YES/NO answer to whether it is reasonable to fit a non-condensing boiler in a particular building for a specified fuel (gas, LPG, or oil). If the answer is ‘NO’, then a condensing boiler must be fitted unless some other way can be found to demonstrate that a non-condensing boiler is reasonable provision in accordance with the Building Regulations. If the answer is ‘YES’ then either a condensing or non-condensing boiler may be fitted. Whatever the answer, the boiler does not have to be fitted in the position shown on the assessment form, which will have been chosen for least cost without regard for householder preference.

Completed assessment forms should be retained by the householder, since they may be helpful when the house is sold.
 
I dont have any assessment form, I didnt know anything about having to be assessed for a combi boiler. He just said we would need a combi boiler because of the house being terraced. I didnt realise he wasn't telling the truth, i just trusted what he said.
I dont know what I am supposed to do now- am I supposed to have the boiler replaced with the right sort?
Because it hasnt been commissioned correctly does this mean its warranty is void?
Have I done something wrong/illegal by having this fitted or is it the fitter who is wrong?
This really is a nightmare! Argh!
 
Humbug, don't worry too much about not having a condensing boiler. The obligation to comply with the Building Regulations lies with the installer, not the customer, so no one will blame you, or require you to change the boiler.

However the installer is clearly in breach of the Building Regulations -

1. the boiler is not a condensing boiler.

2. the Benchmark certificate is not filled in properly (no temperatures, incorrect burner pressures, etc. - he's just made up the figures!).

3. there is no room stat fitted (according to the Benchmark certificate).

Quite likely other points as well that we cannot ascertain from photos.

If the installer is Corgi registered, he should notify Corgi of the installation (within 20 days). However if he does, he will reveal to them that he has installed a non-condensing boiler, contrary to the Building Regulations. If he notifies Corgi, you will eventually receive a certificate from Corgi to confirm this. But I suspect he will not notify.

The installer could be in big trouble with Corgi and possibly Building Control. However it's up to you to decide if you want to bring this to the attention of the authorities. They might require him to bring the installation up to standard at his own expense, but this might not include repairs to the fabric of your house. Plus it would be a lot of hassle for you, dealing with all the officials and maybe having to have the installer back into your home to put things right!

You might be best advised to inform him that you are not willing to pay his bill (or only a part of it) due to all the faults, making it clear that if he wishes to make an issue of it you will have no choice but to ask Corgi and Building Control to investigate the non-compliance with the Building Regulations. That should scare him off bringing a claim against you. Then, when the dust has settled, you can spend the money putting right the damage, etc. (but keeping the existing boiler).

Bear in mind that he is not likely to take kindly to all this and might try to "retrieve his boiler" or something, so do get proper advice on how to proceed (show a lawyer/advisor this topic for information). I'm sure you have the law largely on your side, but you must nevertheless play it carefully and by the book.
 
First and foremost, the boiler manufacturer's warranty has nothing to do with the assessment process - the latter is to satisfy the requirements of the latest Building Regulations.

I recommend that you call the boiler manufacturer and ask them to confirm the terms and conditions, and duration, of your warranty, and what documentation the installer should have left with you to support any warranty claim (e.g. invoice showing date of installation). This should at least reassure you that you have a working and maintainable appliance.

Secondly, you need to make a decision regarding your installer. It's all too easy for us on the forum to damn him, but we haven't heard his side of the story. I'm not implying that you're fibbing, far from it, just that he deserves to be heard, even though on the face of it there's a rising tide of evidence to show he's not entirely trustworthy.

The question is: do you attempt to reconcile the relationship, firmly but politely explaining what you want to be rectified and why you want it, and give him a chance to put it right, or do you want to go down the adversarial path?

Before you decide, consider this: disagreements sometimes, but not by any means always, end up at court. If you're not prepared to go to court to uphold your rights, then you should be prepared to cut and run.

This is because the court will recognise the installer's right, as a trader, to be given the opportunity to put right whatever might be wrong with his work, at no cost to you. If you were to deprive him of that right for no good reason, then it would weaken your case.

Any legal professionals in this situation, would advise that you take professional legal advice. However, general advice is always as follows:

1. Keep a diary of events; include particular notes on the original brief that you gave the installer, any discussion of decisions that he offered you, and any requests you made for changes.

2a. Write to the installer, setting out your concerns. Keep it simple, and amicable - strive to keep all emotion out of the letter. Do your best to swallow your disappointment, because it's not a measurable outcome of the contract.

2b. In the letter, set out what you want to happen, and by when you want it to happen. Do not admonish him. Finish the letter with your expectation of the next step, e.g. that he contact you to arrange a date for remedial work.

2c. Offer to pay the installer in stages. A court will not see it as reasonable if you withhold ALL payment, since he has incurred expenses in buying materials. Offer to pay those expenses, plus, say, half of the labour, with the remainder payable when you are satisfied. Point out that you require the installation to meet the current Building Regulations - you don't need to know exactly what they are at this stage, but point out that you have a right to expect that the BRs are adhered to, and that any deviation potentially decreases the marketable value of the property.

3. Act swiftly and promptly at all times. Any delay may be viewed by the court as reticence and that you don't have the courage of your convictions.

The condensing boiler issue is a particular concern. You need to establish your own certainty about whether or not you have one (talk to the manufacturer), and, if you don't, ask the installer why you don't.

Keep under your belt, for now, the fact that, if the installer does not remedy the "faults", then, after he's been given a chance (or two), you have the right to employ another professional and to charge your man (or deduct from his bill) the cost of having someone else rectify the faults. I can give you chapter and verse on contract law if you would like, although I suggest it wouldn't be helpful at this stage, since you still have a chance to sort things out.

I write all this as someone who holds a rudimentary law qualification, and who has taken the route to court many times (mostly parties settle out of court, by the way).

Keep firm, but be polite, and you'll get there in the end. And there's always be help on this forum - we don't like tradesman who tar the reputation of the rest of us.
 
Gas prices are going to go up and up and up, you WANT a room stat, you WANT a condensing combi, this will keep your gas bills lower, he SHOULD have fitted them both by LAW, if you dont want the hassle then at least MAKE him reduce the bill to help towards the EXTRA gas you are going use unnecessarily while in the property, if this dikhead has three balls get all three and keep them in a jar, DEMAND that he carries out GAS WORK NOTIFICATION to corgi as you will need a certificate when selling the house later on, as this is law as well, good luck and dont be bullied, you have everything on your side.
 
The funny thermostat caps! Is there anywhere I can buy plain ones?!

I know it's only trivial, but it might be best not to make ANY mondifications to the system yourself, otherwise an unscrupulous installer could blame any problems on the changes you've made. OK, swapping thermostat caps is silly I know but you need to proceed 100% by the book I reckon.

John
 
PEDANTICVINDICTIVEMAN said:
...he SHOULD have fitted them both by LAW, if you dont want the hassle then at least MAKE him reduce the bill to help towards the EXTRA gas you are going use ...
It would be unwise to go down this route, i.e. compensation for future losses, since there was no contract that stipulated either a condensing boiler or a roomstat. If there is no such contract clause, then a court would not uphold a claim of breach of contract, notwithstanding the 'fact' that he might, or might not, have broken the law.
 
Gosh, don't you get the best advice on this forum!

I'm posting again just to say that I think everyone is making very good points, especially softus. Ideally you would get legal representation on this, but the costs are likely to quickly get out of proportion to the sum of money involved. Nevertheless I think you should ring up one or two solicitors (local law centre?) to see what some very limited help (say a letter to the installer) might cost.

I think you need to decide how you feel about the installer coming back into your home to put things right. If you want to avoid that, better to aim for a settlement where you still pay a substantial part of his bill. It might be better to pay a little more than you think he deserves rather than have all the expense, hassle and stress of a drawn out dispute.

By the way I checked the boiler specification on the Chaffoteaux & Maury website - it's definitely not a condensing boiler. Don't confuse combi and condensing (chalk and cheese). You can have a condensing combi and a non-condensing combi boiler.
 
I was (very briefly) quizzing my other half about this last night (she's a lawyer). She said that its very likely that you would need to settle the bill with him in full, and then take him to court for damages - rather than withholding all or part of the payment.

She also said that a contract, verbal or written, would not need to explicitly state that a condensing boiler was to be fitted. The installer has an obligation to comply with the law, and a contract cannot "out-law" the law. So, if he cannot present an assessment certificate then something is wrong.

I also think you should ring your boiler's manufacturer to ask about the warranty. I've just had a boiler installed, and the terms of the warranty stipulate that the boiler must be installed by a corgi, and the benchmark logbook must be properly completed, else the warranty is void. And a boiler manufacturer is perfectly within his rights to add these conditions.

To this end, you need to make you mind up sharpish how far you're prepared to take this, and if you want the full route then you *must* seek legal advise, before you pay him, or decide not to pay him. The Citizens Advise Bureau will probably be able to help, at least initially.
 
As I said earlier, I think you are entitled to withhold the entire cost of rectification, with the possible exception of sorting out the pipes on the landing, because you didn't agree how the pipework would be run before he started (although you did raise it as an issue when you saw it). This would have to include a boiler change, because the one you have does not meet the legal requirements, unless it can be shown that your house cannot reasonably be fitted with a condensing boiler. I think your photos clearly show that it can. Softus' points are very good. You must never forget that nothing is certain in court. You can lose when you shouldn't. The best legal advice is usually 'don't go to court'.
However, if you do what has been suggested, i.e. set out in a letter what you expect, and give a time limit (10days?) for compliance, you are demonstrating how reasonable you are, which is important. Sometimes a contract wil say that the items bought to site remain the property of the contractor until the client has paid. Did you sign anything like that? If you didn't, my recollection is that things attached to the premises become the property of the house owner, so you now own them and he can't demand to come back and remove them. The trouble is that you will now be getting into the most almighty fight with him. If, for example, he says he agrees to change the boiler, and you let him, what's to stop him turning up, removing the boiler, then leaving without putting the new one in, or demanding money up front to continue. I wouldn't want him back in the house. Perhaps you'd better find out what the current limits are for 'small claims' court procedures are. If you go there it will be less stressful, but my goodness, what a mess. I'm so sorry for you.
 
Oh so the way it works is, get a cowboy to fit the system not complying with the regs, then when it's too much trouble let him get away with it, perhaps someone can tell me why I am looking at spending £5000.00 next year never mind what I spent last year and continuing to install to all current regs then ?, should I not bother and just reduce my prices and get loud and arsy if the customer mentions anything to frighten them off, what a crock of shiitt.
 

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