CH Upgrade with Digital TRV's

[chrisgla]

Thinking of upgrading CH to add digital wireless TRV's to give more control/ economy.

System has 15 radiators all with traditional Danfoss TRV except hall which is bypass (4 bed, 3 public room in there).


The two options I'm considering are:-
1) Pegler i-Temp Terriers TRV's coupled with replacing the circulating pump on my existing Boilermate 2000 store with a Grundfos Alpha variable

2) Honeywell Interlocked TRV system (not sure if this means CM zone - Evotouch- Hometronic)

The Honeywell seems to be around 100% more expensive- money that I think may be better spent replacing the pump. I don't think the Honeywell gives temperature per TRV either- the thermostat seems to be separate?

I don't have a usual routine as I sometimes work away, sometimes at home so looking for a flexible system that's easy to re-program. In that way I think the Honeywell can give better remote programming but this seems to be expensive!

Wireless on the Pegler's just seems to give slightly easier programming.

Thanks!

 

[Dan Robinson]

You should have posted this a couple of hours ago.

I am currently running the Evotouch system having had the Peglar version (including the remotes and wireless programming function).

However, I am off to bed now so you will need to wait till tomorrow for my sober opinions. I can say though ,that I am almost certainly the only person on here to have first hand experiences of both systems.

Even though I love the system and am a Honeywell Fan boy.... it will take a LONG time to pay back a 15 rad system in fuel savings.

but....

I don't think the Honeywell gives temperature per TRV either- the thermostat seems to be separate?

is incorrect. The TRVs communicate both ways, and you can have more than one per zone. You can also incorporate weather comp and Open therm.

I also have a thermal store - although not a BM 2000. and my unit controls my TS - despite HW saying it couldn't.

The Peglar Wireless and remote system is not as good as it may seem on paper if you want to fine tune parts of the house on the fly.

Changing up from an Alpha is also not likely to yield significant savings.

 

[Charnwood]

There are a few other brands on the market; Salus, Chalmor. There's another on the market from a well known manufacturer.

"Who"?, you might ask. Senior moment I'm afraid. Saw it in a trade mag last week.

Edit: It's Danfoss.
It is the bottom valve in the picture, taken from the Danfoss website, but can I hell as like find any details about it.

I might trawl the trade mags I get and see if I can find it.

 

[mysteryman]

Of course, the best improvement to system control is weather compensation.

 

[Norcon]

Edit: It's Danfoss.

Danfoss living connect. Each rad unit is about £50 afaik.
Then you need the central controller after that which has a battery pack also!

Their sales spiel says.....

Easy to operate - only three buttons
Open window function
Valve exercise function
PID control (precise control)
Adaptive learning
Weekly programs with adjustable
Temperature set-backs
Battery lifetime 2 years
Min./max. temp. limitation
Child lock
Holiday/away function

I'd like something like this in my own home but the battery changing regime is a big put off. Had a battery home alarm for some years and it was a pain. Put me off battery stuff for life.
Better off with normal trv's. A quality gas filled sensor is only £18 quid.

Valve exercising is best done by the homeowner and of course that exercises the homeowner too.

 

[Boilerman2]

As far as I am aware ONLY HONEYWELL make a fully compliant system with regard to interlocking of the zones to the boiler & pump the others are local control only and a bit of a gimmick IMHO you get what you pay for, in a large house the cost of hard wiring a multiple zone system would be expensive and that is whre the Honeywell system becomes attractive
it will never be viable in a modern 3-5 bed house!

 

[Dan Robinson]

As far as energy efficiency goes -and I haven't done the sums, only glanced at graphs courtesy of BG... TRV's are good. Programmable TRVs are better, Evo Home is better still.

As I said last night, the pay back time will be immense on a full Evo system - I would guess around £1300 for 14 rads worth and not including the hot water module. I assume the TRVs are already there.

I have only seen the Danfoss ones the other day so won't pass comment on them.

I have had some issues with the wireless bonding with my hot water module, but I have mine set up to do a rather odd things... so it might be down to those rather than a problem with the kit...

 

[Charnwood]

Then you need the central controller after that which has a battery pack also!

No central controller. Each unit works independantly. It's the living eco® not living connect.

http://www.consumers.randall.danfoss.co.uk/Content/7d49dcd7-5012-42b8-ab6c-2e689bd1e0bf.html

 

[Dan Robinson]

Better than the Peglar effort - although I haven't found the remote and wireless programmer thingy... That was actually quite handy - but the remote was pants.

 

[chrisgla]

thanks for all the replies. I'd seen a couple of mentions of the new Danfoss TRV's but now I look at them I realise they're actually Z-wave which would let me adjust them remotely.

Danfoss link looks like it can be the interlock by adding relays but prive is around £450... struggling a bit for info but found this:- http://www.novreczky.eu/danfoss/living/pdf/linkcc.pdf

I think a Vera Z-wave controller will give me a lot more control than the Linkanyway, found quite a nice starter kit here:-
http://www.vesternet.com/z-wave/energy-kits/z-wave-vera-lite-energy-kit-p-1407.html
The same site has Horstman Z-wave thermostats that I think may be addressable via macros on the Vera to use as interlocks.

I need to read more but this definately looks the way to go as the Honeywell web access is silly money and being able to manage CH when away from home has a lot of benefits for me (like turn off when the lodger isn't around!)

How about the upgrade of the current Grunfos 15-50 fixed speed circulation pump on the Boilermate to a Grunfos Alpha variable? Some other posts seemed to indicate that this was worthwhile if a lot of TRV's are closed as could be the case with the new setup.
The current UPS15-50 uses 95W at full speed whereas the alpha runs down to about 4W I think when load is off.
A lot of the saving to be had here isn't from the pump not running, but from chaging the hal radiator to TRV and turning it down as there seems to be so much waste and instability every time the front door is opened.

 

[simond]

Not the ONLY person on here, Dan. All bets off!

 

[simond]

Honeywell rule on this stuff, they have been making it for ten years. Others have come and gone.

Their Evohome is great but has a few limitations, for instance, the cyl thermostat won't interface easily with an unvented cylinder, and it won't control on/off relays. It also can't do the 16 zones of Hometronic.

Honeywell's Hometronic is the daddy, which is why we fit them. It will do virtually anything you want, but it isn't cheap and not particularly DIY friendly to set up in the first instance. But thats why you employ a heating professional like me.

The Danfoss looks good, but - incredibly- is not linked to the boiler. Perhaps they ran out of money at a critical time?

 

[chrisgla]

I'm still reading up on the Danfoss but the "Boiler Relay" does seem to be an interlock...
http://danfoss.ipapercms.dk/Heating/AutoGen/29716_32988/

as does the Hydronic
http://danfoss.ipapercms.dk/Heating/AutoGen/26278_28355/
Using that it appears you can set demand based on one room, or any number of rooms.
All docs for the systems here:-
http://heating.danfoss.com/xxTypex/318755_MNU17417833_SIT54.html

The Honeywell looks nice but Z-wave might just take the Danfoss to a new level. A Z-wave PIR in a room could turn up heating only when occupied for instance, and the ability to use a general purpose rather than a monolithic controller gives much richer web and other interface options.

14 radiators including controller with full web access for around £1K?....

 

[Norcon]

I'm still reading up on the Danfoss but the "Boiler Relay" does seem to be an interlock...
http://danfoss.ipapercms.dk/Heating/AutoGen/29716_32988/

as does the Hydronic
http://danfoss.ipapercms.dk/Heating/AutoGen/26278_28355/
Using that it appears you can set demand based on one room, or any number of rooms.
All docs for the systems here:-
http://heating.danfoss.com/xxTypex/318755_MNU17417833_SIT54.html

The Honeywell looks nice but Z-wave might just take the Danfoss to a new level. A Z-wave PIR in a room could turn up heating only when occupied for instance, and the ability to use a general purpose rather than a monolithic controller gives much richer web and other interface options.

14 radiators including controller with full web access for around £1K?....

Thats a controller for a manifold based system. Typically would be ufh but could be radiators also supplied from a centrally located manifold.
The controller will be located nearby also for ease of wiring to the actuaters as is commonly the case.
Not something you could add to a rad based system as a retrofit without considerable upheaval.

But the Danfoss Link CC (central controller) and RS (room sensor) will then communicate with each other wirelessly and then let the Danfoss link HC (hydronic controller) know which actuaters need operating.
It seems to have few nifty features built in also.

Though not something you would use in a new build when hard wiring is an option!

 

[Charnwood]

Plumbnation are doing the danfoss living eco at a quid each. Fill your boots!
http://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/danfoss-living-eco-digital-thermostatic-radiator-valves/

(Haven't we had problems with their pricing before?)