Collapsed Balcony.

[1stafford]

Hi, I have a bit of a problem and am hopeful the god folks here can give me some advice.

The upstairs neighbours has a balcony above my kitchen (kitchen at ground level), The joists (180mm depth) on one side, holding the balcony floor have rotted away and dropped by 110mm.
I am (was ) going to replace my kitchen because it has been dammaged by damp, which i just thought was due to the age of the kitchen. It was only when i got into the crawl space between those joists and my kitchen ceiling that i noticed something dire was up. I have taken my ceiling down and placed acrow props to support the balcony joists .

Now the bit i am concerned with,

I have told my neighbours wife that the balcony was about to fail, she said she would inform her husband and get him to pop round so i could show him. Two days later he had not been round so i knocked again and asked if he was in and she said he was at work and busy . The thing is , i would have been round like a shot to get things sorted and i get the feeling they are in no hurry. Any advice is welcome, cheers. Staffo.

on verge of collapse

• 1stafford
• 5 Jul 2014
• 1

The joists should be in the holes

dropped by 110mm

• 1stafford
• 5 Jul 2014
• 1

The joists ends have rotted away and dropped by 110mm

 

[Safety First]

...............The joists (180mm depth) on one side, holding the balcony floor have rotted away and dropped by 110mm. ....................................Now the bit i am concerned with, Who is responsible ?

on verge of collapse

• 1stafford
• 5 Jul 2014
• 1

The joists should be in the holes

dropped by 110mm

• 1stafford
• 5 Jul 2014
• 1

The joists ends have rotted away and dropped by 110mm

Am neither a specialist in carpentry nor rot, but to drop that amount and not further sheer or snap, baffles me..... (Doesn't take much ) Is the appearance of construction misleading, are the joists cut into the horizontal? Seems a long way to drop and remain in place..
Having had another look, I might be talking rubbish. I can't make it out from the photos... sorry! Unless the rotten timber has been crushed by sound timber?



Again, not at all sure but the ingress is the cause of the need of the repair, irrespective of who owns the joists.. no?

Maybe the costs are whomever is liable for the water damage?

 

[bernardgreen]

Are the properties freehold or leasehold ?

If they are lease hold then contact the free holder(s) and get copies of the leases to see if responsibilities are defined.

The urgent task is to get the structure secure. The local Council Building Control Office may be willing to offer impartial and accurate advice on that matter.

One thing comes to mind. Is the balcony a properly constructed balcony with planning permission and building control approval or are the neighbours just walking on your flat roof having fitted railings. It might be they have damaged your roof which has allowed rain to enter and cause the damage, In which case they are totally responsible for repairs and you may have a csae to claim compensation from them. Legal advice may be needed, Citizen Advice Bureau will be able to help there.

 

[1stafford]

Thanks for the replies.

The Properties are 'flying freeholds', As far as i can remember the building was converted in 1982 (badly, i have slowly been trying do things properly) and the balcony had planning permission.

The construction of the balcony itself seems to have been to remove existing roof , shuttered on top of the brick walls and concrete poured onto the bricks to increase height, joists then laid on top and then walls on the three sides built. So the joists ends on one side have rotted AWAY then dropped. The only things that were keeping it up it up are that the joists on the opposite side are inserted into the wall (cantilever effect) and also the thickness of the balcony and the wall gets thicker slightly as it gets lower, jamming the structure in place.

They have decking on the balcony and i asked his wife whether it was level or on a slant, the assumptions being, if it was level, the decking had to have been done 'after' the balcony had dropped or if it was on a slant why on earth had they not said anything or how could they possbly not have noticed it.
Over the years i had a lot to contend with the sewage pipe filling my basement with **** & **** and only when after 4 weeks of no action being taken i threatened to fill the sewer pipe with concrete did southern water do anything. Flooded basement four times via different means, arrgh.

legal advice may be the way i am going to have to go, just a bit skint, pay the solictors and forget about the kitchen. And wouldn't you believe it his sister is a solicitor.

 

[rjm2k]

If you have buildings insurance they may offer a legal helpline.

 

[AronSearle]

Seems its your roof and their decking / shared costs?

How is water getting into the structure.

Have you identified how, also is the roof-space ventilated, eliminate condensation as a cause.

Roof joists need to be sized differently if they are to support a decking structure, rather than just to allow access, may be worth pointing out that if they don't accept any costs, you then have no obligation to provide a structure capable of supporting access for them (but check that with a lawyer I may be speaking rubbish)?

 

[1stafford]

" IT IS HEREBY AGREED AND DECLARED that every wall separating the property hereby assigned from the first and second floors of the maisonette shall be a party wall severed medially and shall be included in the property hereby assigned so far as the medial plane thereof."

I read that as we are both jointly responsible for the joists ie medial = 1. Relating to, situated in, or extending toward the middle; median.(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/medial) but solely responsible for the 'skins' either side.

The water is definitely coming from above and is not condensation. You can see it trickling down the walls even a couple of days after it has rained (pooling).

He was supposed to come round last night at 7pm and did not, i text asking if he was still coming, sent at 7.45pm and he did not reply until 8.15pm with "no, not now, will have to wait" , and no apology.

 

[Dave54]

I'm not saying your leak is condensation. I'm not an expert by any means, but don't totally discount it being that. If there's warm, humid air from a kitchen coming up against a cold inner roof surface, particularly when it's raining or cold, you can get a considerable amount of condensate, and it can be difficult to tell whether it's that or a leak without experience and instruments to measure temperature, humidity, dew point, and temperatures of surfaces etc. It also depends on how well the space is insulated, ventilated from the outside, and sealed from the kitchen.

Having said all that, and without being any sort of legal expert either, if the roof is divided at the median, then surely if the problem actually is a leak, then it's in the part that your neighbour is responsible for. The outside surface. That leak has then damaged your part of the structure.

It sounds to me as if your neighbour isn't really seeing this as his problem, and is also used to people doing what he says on a day to day basis.

If I was in your position, I think I'd want some proper independent expert advice both on the building problem, and on the legal position. It will cost money now but it may save you money in the future.

 

[1stafford]

I'm not saying your leak is condensation. I'm not an expert by any means, but don't totally discount it being that. If there's warm, humid air from a kitchen coming up against a cold inner roof surface, particularly when it's raining or cold, you can get a considerable amount of condensate, and it can be difficult to tell whether it's that or a leak without experience and instruments to measure temperature, humidity, dew point, and temperatures of surfaces etc. It also depends on how well the space is insulated, ventilated from the outside, and sealed from the kitchen.

Having said all that, and without being any sort of legal expert either, if the roof is divided at the median, then surely if the problem actually is a leak, then it's in the part that your neighbour is responsible for. The outside surface. That leak has then damaged your part of the structure.

It sounds to me as if your neighbour isn't really seeing this as his problem, and is also used to people doing what he says on a day to day basis.

If I was in your position, I think I'd want some proper independent expert advice both on the building problem, and on the legal position. It will cost money now but it may save you money in the future.

Thanks for the reply, I understand what you mean about the 'possible' condensation, I have seen the water trickling down in three seperate locations directly from underneath where the balcony meets the wall and have discounted that it is condensation.

I have sent him an email this afternoon

Hi Colin I have included the links below to the photos that show the balcony in a dangerous condition.

http://s22.postimg.org/u15rvczj5/Joists_drop_by_110mm.jpg

http://s27.postimg.org/jjazh1vqr/Joists_in_these_holes.jpg

It is a shame you were not able to come round as arranged at 7pm 07/07/2014 with your Father as i would have been able to show you in what a dangerous condition it is in, as such i would strongly advise you or anyone else not to walk on it. As you are aware that your decking has listed, it would be an indication that all is not well.

The Joists have rotted away at the ends and the balcony has dropped by approx 110mm. As far as I can work out it is only being held up by a combination of the joists inserted to the wall on the opposite wall 'canterlivered' and a couple of joists that are rotting but have not yet failed.

If the balcony were to fail it would cause greater damage to the brick structure itself.

I would suggest ACTION is taken sooner rather than later, you have my phone number please feel free to phone at anytime.

10 years ago, I would not have been this reasonable.

 

[gregers]

so whats changed,tell him if he falls through your going to sue him for costs to the damage of your property.

 

[1stafford]

Something odd going on.

On Friday 1st August he moved out, leaving no forwarding address.

It gets worse,

on the 06/08/14 a property investment company was added to the Title registry

' 3 (06.08.2014) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate by
the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered without a
written consent signed by ****** ************ Properties Limited (Co. Regn.
No. 06*******) of ******* ******** Street, Leeds L*** ****.

., the same colin is still listed head of the title absolute I phoned them up and they seemed unaware of the dispute. erm. It looks as though colin may have taken out a mortgage or sold an interest in the property without declaring there was a dispute. Is that called mortgage fraud ?

 

[Nozzle]

When rain falls on the balcony - where does it accumulate? Perhaps that is the source of the damp and thus rot.

Nozzle

 

[1stafford]

When rain falls on the balcony - where does it accumulate? Perhaps that is the source of the damp and thus rot.

Nozzle

I have just checked my email, and the investment firm are being great, proactive and has sent the photos to his builder.

As you can see the cladding is missing from the wall, down the bottom of the picture above you can tell the angle the cladding has drop and the balcony continues to leak from that side.

In the picture above you can see the unconventional construction of the balcony . They have taken the old roof off, shuttered the walls and sat 75mm x 125mm posts (to act as support for the walls of the balcony) on the brick level that the previous roof joists were sat on, poured concrete 270mm in depth lifting the roof structure totally into their side of the boundary. They did this so that when they stepped out onto the balcony they didn't have step down too far.

 

[dougthedawg]

Would love to know where this has got to now...

 

[1stafford]

Hi doug, I got a phone call today Saturday (30/08/14) from the property investment firms builder saying he would be here on Tuesday and planned for it to take three days. They will be putting a fibre glass covering on, doing away with the cladding and wooden posts and putting up a wrought iron balustrade. I will be taking pictures. After two months i am looking forward to this being sorted, The board that the fusebox sits on is showing signs of water marks . Fingers crossed, roll on Tuesday