Commercial work, can I help them

[Chri5]

As a lowly DISQ I understand that I'm not to do commercial work, but....

A friend has asked me if I could do some install work and then farm out the commissioning / test and cert work.

It's a small warehouse that they intend to use as a studio, size is 25m x 10m and other than lights and a small tea room there's no real electrical infrastructure.

He would like perimeter trunking, run at ceiling height and simple drops for socket services.
4 defined 32a rings (4mm cable), 2 radials (one for a comms / server area) and one for heating(6mm and 10mm cable), clean earth provision- lights don't need work.

Existing 3 phase board would take all the new services.

I'm confident I could do all the work and have no issue with cable size or providing industrial containment, but am I allowed to ? :-

1/ Do all work (inc test and commission)and get a PIR / Cert from a 3rd party
2/ Do all the cabling work and containment, test the dark (unconnected services) and arrange for 3rd party to commission and cert
3/ Do nothing, because I'm not legally qualified

Work has been quoted at £9k and I could do it for 30% less, leaving a chunk available for the 3rd party inspection, test and cert work.

Thanks for all friendly advice

 

[Chri5]

35 people have looked at this post, yet no one wants to make a comment.

Is what I'm proposing really that bad

 

[Spark123]

Are you insured to do the work? Are you competent i.e. have sufficient knowledge to avoid danger with this type of work? What do the company requesting the work and their insurance company require i.e. a member of a competent person scheme? What do the council require? If all of the above are happy you can do a 3 part EIC where you do the design and construction, followed by another firm to do the inspection and testing.

 

[DESL]

OK I'll comment

Do you consider yourself competent to carry out the task?

If so you do the whole installation including testing as you'll find it difficlult to get a 3rd party to sign off your work.

I would think on a job this size there will be a 3 phase supply for a start which with DISQ you will have little or no experience of such.

Also industrial wiring will involve trunking, conduit all wired in singles or lots of SWA.

Basically it's down to you to decide whether you feel competent and confident to carry out the job.

 

[Steve]

35 people have looked at this post, yet no one wants to make a comment.

Is what I'm proposing really that bad

No, if it was "really that bad", all 35 people would have posted to say you're a complete and utter idiot. Not quite that bad though

If you can get a friendly spark on board to do the testing and inspection and commisioning, go for it. Make sure of this before you start though.

 

[scousespark]

That's one Hell of a jump from domestic and goes way beyond the DISQ course mate. As DESL pointed out this involves a load of stuff that is out of the normal domestic environment and I think you'll struggle to find a spark to sign off your work.

Where does the curcuit design come from? This should be designed based on load and you haven't mentioned this.

Also, assuming an electrician gave the 9K quote, shaving this down to 6K is a big ask.

 

[Pensdown]

I would guess the reason why you're 30% cheaper is because you don't have PI insurance even though you will be designing. You won't be providing design documentation, calculation and drawings as part of your pre works package and I doubt if you will be handing over any O&M manuals, all of which are required.

But to answer your questions, you can do every thing that you have listed including testing and commissioning and if you feel you can do it carry on.

Just remember, even if you're lucky enough to find an nic contractor to issue an EIC your name will be in the designer box for future reference.

 

[Chri5]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I've worked on quite a few 3 phase sites, round here there are quite a few 15-20 room £2m+++ houses, and the DISQ NIC did spend half a day going through 3 phase detail.

On the containment, I was a comms project designer (fitter / supervisor for 10+) for 15 years specialising in 5000+ point Cat 5 systems in factories, oil refineries, offices, food prep buildings and campus sites, so containment provision is water off a ducks back.

Design, drawings, loads, handover manual for O&M will be straight forward enough.

I'll have a word with my insurance man about the liability aspect and see what happens from there

 

[scousespark]

You need to get your mate to check his insurers as well as yours.
You don't mention any emergency lighting or fire alarms (may already be in place).
Putting sockets around the walls is not very flexible as 10 metres is a wide span from wall to wall.
Are you sure the lighting is adequate for the new use?
Did your half day also cover balancing 3-phase loads (this took a bit more than half a day on my 2400 course)

I suppose in dumb-down Britain it was only a matter of time before an 'electrician' could be replaced by a Domestic Installer doing commercial/industrial work.

I have 2360/2381/2391- Plus 2400 (and was slagged of by other sparks for 3 years on sites as a 30 year old newbie) and have 10 years experience.

This isn't a pop at you Chris, but is me venting my frustration at the state of our industry now.

 

[Chri5]

Paul

I appreciate everything you say and can assure you that I would not make this sort of arrangement as a standard thing.

There's a sperate office room on the premises and I have been offered this as a store / work area and trading address for a nominal £40 p.w.
Its 400 yards from home and since it has full drive in / drive out access I'm keen to do a favour for a favour.

It's doesn't help that the person taking out the lease, is more of a brother than a mate, otherwise I would have refused end of.

Simple emergency lighting and full chain hung strips x 15 units already exist in the warehouse, so that is okay for there needs.

The total number of staff will never be more than 4 persons, plus me (maybe) and that avoids the need for full certificated fire systems which under the regs is for work spaces with more than 8 persons.

The cable loads have been calculated without considering diversity and the design has included all the normal office equipment loads. The business is a studio for a marketing company with an area for photographic work that will include suitable portable lighting kit.

The depth of the premises is 25m, width 10m and there are 4 central RSJ's that support the beam structure, these will be fed from one of the flank walls via a dedictated central area ring run via conduit supported by girder clips.

I'll be using any profit I make to support my next stages of training aged 47, but will be doing 2381 and 2391 later this year. I'm getting too old for crawling around under floors, hate using lazy, snotty, spotty kids and plan to move towards PIR's inspection and test work.

 

[scousespark]

I can see the reasons you have for looking at doing this job, but I'd strongly recommend you leave this for an electrician. You said you'd walk away if it was not a job for somebody you are so close to. That would concern me and I would also be concerned that you haven't got your 2381/2391 yet. If anything untoward happened you'd struggle to prove you are competent for this level of electrical installation.

I am a self-employed Approved Contractor and would not give a job this size to somebody without 2381 and I'd prefer them to have 2391. This job is a big jump from domestic (even large houses) and comms.

 

[scousespark]

Chri5, I know this an old thread, but would be interested to know if you took this job on. I was picking up some gear and a DI was in getting some metal conduit as he was doing a workshop for his mate. You should have seen his face when he asked for 'something to join the lenghts' and the bloke told him how you fit couplers. He 'only wanted something to stick on the ends'. I nearly wet myself.

This just reminded about your thread, but I'm not implying you're anything like this bloke.

 

[Chri5]

I spent 6 months at Kraft Jacob site in Banbury doing trunking with stainless steel conduit drops years ago.

If you can cope with that, basic conduit is like a walk in the park.

Job failed, they were gazumped. Shame because my Brother in Law runs a 15 person firm that 'own' the electrical work on one of the Cadbury's mega bottling sites. He was set to be designer and would have 3rd party inspected the job and done the EIC.

That's the summer holiday, no longer sorted and I'll still be working via home rather than in my own office / store space