Conlock conduit

[JohnW2]

Yeah, but we've all learned a little bit more of the language

True - although I suspect that it has not really helped those (not me!) whose primary interest appears to be to decide what is (and is not) 'correct'.

As I'm always saying, whether in relation to technical terminology or language on general, what matters to me is 'effective communication', not issues of 'correctness'. In that sense, it seems that both forms of words we have been discussing are in fairly common usage, and both generally represent effective communication. It is true that this all started because when SUNRAY wrote using the phraseology I would not use, I thought it was probably a typo - but, even then, that fact that I made that comment meant that I at least thought that I had correctly understood the spirit of what he was saying (i.e. that he agreed with me).

It's certainly true that I have always used 'my wording', seemingly understood by all those I interact with, and would never dream of using 'the other' wording. Since it's easily done with modern technology, last night I had a quick search through some of the work-related things I'd written in recent years. I found countless cases in which I had written things like:

I can but conclude ...
I can but suggest ...
I can but assume ...
I can but advise ....
etc. etc.

In documents (reports etc.), rather than correspondence, I commonly 'de-personalised' it, by changing the "I" either to "One" or to "It" (with appropriate change of verb form - e.g. "It can but be assumed ..."). No-one has ever asked for clarification or 'corrected' what I've written (my documents are usually 'reviewed' by others) and I've never been aware of any situations in which someone has interpreted my words differently from my intended meaning.

Conversely, I could find no instances of my having written (in the sort of constructs we are talking about) "... can not but ..." or "... cannot but ...". Furthermore, much the same as the above was true when I looked at 'incoming' work-related correspondence and documents.

So, it's clear what I have always done (and will continue to do!), apparently without adverse comment or any impediment of effective communication - and I have to say that I cannot get all that excited about whether or not is is 'correct' (in whoever's eyes!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/69597/what-does-i-cannot-but-totally-agree-mean#:~:text=It means that the speaker cannot disagree with what A,no choice except to agree. –

I can but conclude ...
I can but suggest ...
I can but assume ...
I can but advise ....
etc. etc.

Although it still seems awkward to me - it is clear that in those examples you are correct in that 'but' does mean 'only' and is an adverb and cannot be exchanged for 'except' - which I don't think can ever be an adverb.

However, in:
I cannot but conclude ...
I cannot but suggest ...
I cannot but assume ...
I cannot but advise ....
'but' means 'except' and is a conjunction.

However, substituting 'only' which can also be an adverb alters the meaning and requires punctuation as I previously said; especially in "I cannot do anything but ..." or "I can do nothing but ..."

Is it therefore just a vagiary of the language (possible evolution) which a foreigner would find very difficult to understand?

 

[JohnW2]

Although it still seems awkward to me - it is clear that in those examples you are correct in that 'but' does mean 'only' and is an adverb and cannot be exchanged for 'except' - which I don't think can ever be an adverb.

Quite - although I obviously don't really understand why it 'seems awkward' to you (as below, I would have said that it was 'less awkward'!).

Do I take it that my "I can but agree" no longer 'makes no sense' to you (even if you find it awkward)?

However, in:
I cannot but conclude ...
I cannot but suggest ...
I cannot but assume ...
I cannot but advise ....
'but' means 'except' and is a conjunction.

It does, and I have no problem with the logic of that approach BUT I have to ask why one should 'unnecessarily' introduce a rather messy (per above, I would say 'awkward'), and potentially confusing, 'double negative' (effectively "cannot except") when, as I think you have almost conceded above, the meaning can be clear (I would personally say 'clearer') without addition of those ('messy') words.

However, substituting 'only' which can also be an adverb alters the meaning and requires punctuation as I previously said; especially in "I cannot do anything but ..." or "I can do nothing but ..."

It does with 'your' versions, but only because you insist on including "not" (or "cannot"). Without that, as you have agreed, one can change the "but" to "only" in any of my examples without changing meaning or requiring any punctuation.

Is it therefore just a vagiary of the language (possible evolution) which a foreigner would find very difficult to understand?

I don't think I'd put it quite like that. I think it's more a question of (probably 'unnecessary') 'obsessions' about what is (and is not) 'correct' - particularly given that there are seemingly varying opinions, and hence quite probably no absolute 'correct' (or 'incorrect').

Given that, as I always say, what matters is 'effective communication', even if you find it 'awkward', would you ever think (or expect anyone else to think) that when I wrote "I can but agree" I meant anything other than that "I agree" (least of all that I'm trying to indicate that I do NOT agree)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Quite - although I obviously don't really understand why it 'seems awkward' to you (as below, I would have said that it was 'less awkward'!).

Just what one is used to, I suppose; as you don't like "I cannot but agree".

Do I take it that my "I can but agree" no longer 'makes no sense' to you (even if you find it awkward)?

You can. I have become used to it.
Conversely, are you less uncomfortable using "cannot"?

It does, and I have no problem with the logic of that approach BUT I have to ask why one should 'unnecessarily' introduce a rather messy (per above, I would say 'awkward'), and potentially confusing, 'double negative' (effectively "cannot except") when, as I think you have almost conceded above, the meaning can be clear (I would personally say 'clearer') without addition of those ('messy') words.

Yes, but it is a truncated sentence;"I cannot do anything but (except) agree" as is "I can do nothing but (except) agree".
You cannot substitute "only" in that form.

It does with 'your' versions, but only because you insist on including "not" (or "cannot"). Without that, as you have agreed, one can change the "but" to "only" in any of my examples without changing meaning or requiring any punctuation.

Do you not think 'my' version is more emphatic?

I don't think I'd put it quite like that. I think it's more a question of (probably 'unnecessary') 'obsessions' about what is (and is not) 'correct' - particularly given that there are seemingly varying opinions, and hence quite probably no absolute 'correct' (or 'incorrect').

Ok.

Given that, as I always say, what matters is 'effective communication', even if you find it 'awkward', would you ever think (or expect anyone else to think) that when I wrote "I can but agree" I meant anything other than that "I agree" (least of all that I'm trying to indicate that I do NOT agree)?

Maybe not but you didn't write it. You queried SUNRAY's use of 'cannot' and were outnumbered 3:1.

Effective indisputable communication would probably mean the use of the full sentence - as my point about foreigners understanding.

 

[JohnW2]

Just what one is used to, I suppose; as you don't like "I cannot but agree".

It's not really that I don't like it - it's just very unfamiliar to me. Our experiences must be very different, since I genuinely thought that I was looking at a typo on SUNRAY's part, and it didn't even occur to me that he might have typed the "not" deliberately.

You can. I have become used to it. Conversely, are you less uncomfortable using "cannot"?

I can't see myself ever 'using it'. As above, it's not really a case of 'discomfort' as lack of familiarity. If, as seems to be the case, even those who don't 'like it' understand 'my version', I think I'll stick to belief that it is simpler (less words, and no implied 'double negative') and therefore, to my mind, 'preferable! In any event, as below, I think I actually far more commonly would write "I can only ..." - which I think is probably non-contentious.

Yes, but it is a truncated sentence;"I cannot do anything but (except) agree" as is "I can do nothing but (except) agree". You cannot substitute "only" in that form.

Sure - but, as I've been saying, particularly if 'un-truncated' it is far more complicated/lengthy than it needs to be to convey the intended meaning.

Do you not think 'my' version is more emphatic?

Interesting question. You may be right about the comparison of "cannot but" and "but". However, if I wanted to make my version 'stronger' I think I would (and do) change the "but" to "only" - and then I think that "cannot but" and "only" have equal emphasis, with the latter just being simpler (and, I would say, less confusing).

Maybe not but you didn't write it. You queried SUNRAY's use of 'cannot' and were outnumbered 3:1.

It's true that I didn't write it on this occasion but,. as I have said, I DO write it frequently. One fairly important thing I forgot to say was that, in addition to all the "I can but..." examples I found in my search of 'work-writing', I found even more "I can only ..." examples, so that is what I most commonly write.

In fact, is that probably not 'the answer'? Amidst all this discussion about "but" and "cannot but/except" (let alone 'un-truncated' sentences), do we not all agree ( ) that "I can only agree" is clear, unambiguous, short, non-messy and non-awkward?

Effective indisputable communication would probably mean the use of the full sentence - as my point about foreigners understanding.

See what I've just written. Would not even foreigners understand "I can only agree" without the need for longer, more complicated or 'contentious' senetnces?

Kind Regards, John