Conlock conduit

[JohnW2]

.... https://www.google.com/search?q=but....69i57j0l9.10000j1j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Sure, but when "but" is used to qualify "can agree", it is surely being used as an adverb? ... and if you scroll down the link you posted, you'll see the "only" meaning I posted in relation to use of the word as an adverb.

In the phrases we are discussing, the word "but" surely is not being used as a conjunction (which is what your posted material relates to), is it?

I'm really not arguing, or wishing to argue, and can see that this is one of those situations in which people have differing views which they individually believe are 'correct'. All I'm doing is reporting the way in which I have used the word/phrase for the many decades of my life to date!

There are clearly variations in usage if, as I illustrated, some sources give essentially the same meaning for "can but agree" and "cannot but agree".

It's perhaps a bit like the trans-Atlantic difference between "could not care less" (UK) and "could care less" (S) - although in that case the latter seems so daft to me (in relation to the intended meaning) that I do my best to ignore it (but still shiver whenever I hear it ).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Interesting - not sure what it proves.

 

[JohnW2]

I can but agree doesn't make sense.

As BS3036 says; but does not mean only here; it means except.

I'm trying to understand your view, since this issue is much wider-ranging than the one specific case we've been discussing. Are you saying that you don't accept and/or use phrases/constructs such as;

One can but ask ....
One can but try ....
One can but assume ....
One can but argue ....
One can but hope ....
One can but fight ....
One can but admit defeat ....
One can but appeal ....
One can but compromise ....
etc. etc. etc.

In all such cases, "but" is being used to mean "only", or something like that. I agree that if one used the word to mean "except", one would then logically change all the "can"s to "cannot"s - but those "cannot but" versions would all 'sound wrong' to me, and I don't think that I would personally ever use them. Do I take it that you would?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Interesting - not sure what it proves.

I suppose that what it 'proves' is that Mr Google Translate shares you view that "I can but agree" is 'incorrect' - but I don't necessarily regard him as a particularly 'authority'

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

When in Edit - click More Options.

Thanks for that, I'd never been able before either. However I can't then delete the thumbnail if I get it wrong.

EDIT: Oops yes I can.
Thanks.

 

[JohnW2]

When in Edit - click More Options.

That's very clever (albeit simple!!) and useful - I wish I'd known that years ago Many thanks.

I don't suppose your cleverness extends to knowing a way of 'pasting' images into PMs in this forum, does it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

I think what this proves is that regardless of 'official' meanings of words - sometimes there are expressions people use that make sense to some group of people but not to others.

 

[mattylad]

OH look, 2 pages discussing ow to say he agrees or disagrees with something....

The conlock site looks crap, it mentions a video in a tab yet I can find no tab and no video. (not that I really want to).

 

[SUNRAY]

Goodness how have I missed 2 pages?

I learnt; 'I can not but agree' from one of the law or police programs on TV and a solicitor had to explain it to their client. according to that it developed from 'I can (**) nought but agree'.

It's not something I'd been aware of prior but since heard or seen it numerous times.

(**) add do or think etc to suit

 

[JohnW2]

OH look, 2 pages discussing ow to say he agrees or disagrees with something....

Indeed, but don't blame me. I merely (in post #63) asked for clarification of what I truly believed was a typo, whereupon various people jumped in to say that, in their opinion, it was not a typo!

As a throwaway observation, have you noticed how often it is that discussions/arguments about 'the meaning or words' (and/or 'the evolution of language') arise on Friday evenings? Again, although I am often drawn into those discussions, I don't think you can 'blame' me for them - since, of all these places I discuss a wide range of topics, this is the only one where I find myself involved in discussions about words/language!

The conlock site looks crap, it mentions a video in a tab yet I can find no tab and no video. (not that I really want to).

I didn't bother looking too deeply at the site. As I said to the OP, if I were in his position I feel sure that I would find some way of doing the job which did not involve metal conduit of any sort.

Kind Regards, \John

 

[JohnW2]

Goodness how have I missed 2 pages? I learnt; 'I can not but agree' from one of the law or police programs on TV and a solicitor had to explain it to their client. according to that it developed from 'I can (**) nought but agree'. It's not something I'd been aware of prior but since heard or seen it numerous times. (**) add do or think etc to suit

I'm not sure that the dictionaries would necessarily agree with that. It is clear that both variations of the phrases are in use, and also clear that the word "but" can mean (amongst other things) either "only" or "except" - so the question relates to why different people assume one or other of those meanings in the context we are discussing - and whether (in whoever's opinion) one camp is 'correct' and the other 'incorrect'.

You clearly believe that "I can not but agree" is the 'correct' version (as do most others here who have commented). However, what about the list of other examples I presented in post #78. Do you not use any such language - i.e. would you change all my "can"s to "can not"s [ or "cannot"'s ]?

I have certainly been brought up with the "can but" versions, which are what I always use, and, as I've said, the "can not but" or "cannot but" versions 'sound wrong' to me, and I don't think I would ever use them.

I would add to what I wrote in #78 that, when used as an adverb (i.e. meaning "only" or suchlike) the word "but" can qualify adjectives as well as verbs - so what about things like:

She is but young
It is but temporary
etc.

Would you not use such wording? I would not have expected you to say things like "She is not but young" (which sounds pretty crazy to my ears!), would you?

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Perhaps it is not an adverb in the example we are using but a conjunction.

 

[JohnW2]

Perhaps it is not an adverb in the example we are using but a conjunction.

That's the point - that 'what the word means' depends upon whether one considers it to be being used as an adverb or a conjunction. To my mind, the answer to that seems to be fairly clear, but I suppose others (maybe including yourself) are probably going to disagree!

I really don't see how one can think that it is being used as a conjunction (a word for joining two phrases) - that would only be the case with something like "I agree with EFLI's answer but I disagree with his reasoning", the word "but" being used to 'join' those two different coloured phrases. In the case of "I can but agree", no two things are being 'joined'.

On the other hand, "can agree" seems to be clearly a verb, so I don't see why a word ("but" or anything else) qualifying it should be regarded as anything other than an adverb?

What about my 'list' in post #78? Would you use "can not" (or "cannot") in place of my "can" in all those cases?

Kind Regards, John

 

[BS3036]

The whole point is that it depends whether the 'but' is preceded by 'not' as to which meaning it takes on.

 

[JohnW2]

The whole point is that it depends whether the 'but' is preceded by 'not' as to which meaning it takes on.

Indeed - so are you saying that both versions are 'correct'? - i.e. ...

When 'but' IS preceded by 'not', it effectively means 'not' ..
so "I can not but agree" = I can not not agree" = "I agree"

and

When 'but' IS NOT preceded by 'not', it means something like 'only' ...
so "I can but agree" = "I can only agree" = "I agree" [perhaps implying something slightly stronger, such as "I definitely agree"]

Kind Regards, John