well basically i hired a electrician to renew consumer unit change a light and fan in bathroom. when he quoted for the work he told we he could certify the work once completed. now he took money and is refusing to issue anything . i have no idea about any of this and now have read that building control should have been informed about the work before he started it , but they where not as far as i am aware so now i need to know where to go from here can i hire a qualified electrician to come and look at his work and issue certificate and notify building control any help and advise on what i MUST do now would be very much appreciated
conned by electrician
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I know it's too late now but you should have retained some money until you had the certificate in your hand. You need to pursue the man. Write and tell him if the certificate is not received within 14 days you will instruct a solicitor. The building regs issue depends if he is able to self certify.
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You can inform the LABC and tell them the electrician said he was a scheme member and able to issue certificates but now refuses to issue them.
The LABC will then either inspect themselves or appoint a third party inspector who if the work is OK will inform the LABC and they will issue a completion certificate plus also likely start an investigation on the electrician.
However likely it will cost as much as the job cost in first place to get this paperwork. So a more sensible approach is to ask a scheme member electrician to do an electrical installation condition report (EICR) on the work done and if it passes then do nothing. Not strictly legal way but will insure it's up to standard and your safe.
The rules are two fold one set is not legal but are required to get the legal document the IET/BSi set out what tests should be done and how the forms should be filled in showing the installation is safe. This is the electrical installation certificate (EIC) which can only be completed by person doing the work. The EICR is similar it does not have a signature to say they designed and installed but the important bit testing and inspecting is the same as with an EIC.
The scheme member electrician informs his scheme operator who issue a compliance certificate this is the legal bit. The non scheme member gives the EIC to the owner who in turn sends it to the LABC who issue a completion certificate. The home owner should inform the LABC before the work starts when not using a scheme member electrician. Although officially down to home owner in practice the electrician normally deals with the LABC. However there is a minimum charge so likely means a bill of around £300. So most non scheme member electricians will tell you unless it's part of a larger job then just not worth them doing it because of the LABC charges or they will do the work and not tell the LABC but should still issue an EIC. However the EIC clearly shows they have done the work and many jobs stop their workers from doing other electrical work and there is the tax man so many are loathed to issue something proving they did the work.
The Part P says you must inform LABC for a consumer unit change but to be a consumer unit it has to be installed following all manufacturers instructions if for example a bell transformer was fitted from another manufacturer then it is no longer a consumer unit it becomes a distribution board as no longer type tested. The IET/BSi say with a distribution board it should be looked after by instructed or better person but the IET/BSi regulations are not law but can be used in a court of law.
This is therefore a case of let the courts decide and in real terms the LABC will not take the electrician to court unless either he has done something dangerous or he claimed he was a scheme member and was not. Simply not informing the LABC would not be enough. Although they may tell the tax man.
If an electrician does not say he is a scheme member and he issues an EIC then all he has to say was "I thought the home owner was registering work" and it would be hard to prove he was wrong. However if he does not issue an EIC then clearly he knows the LABC is not being informed as he knows you will need that paperwork.
But in real terms you have to decide is it worth the money to get the paper work? When it happened to me the LABC inspector made it very clear it was up to my dad as the home owner to ensure the LABC was informed although the builder or electrician may often do it for you at the end of the day it's down to the home owner.
Once you tell the LABC there is no going back. I was lucky since work was being done for my mothers disability there was no charge. Had it been my house telling the LABC would have cost me £100 plus vat. At that time the LABC could not charge for using third party testing now they can and in Wales fees are fixed by Welsh Assembly in England it's up to local council so be prepared for around a £300 bill once you tell the LABC.
The LABC will then either inspect themselves or appoint a third party inspector who if the work is OK will inform the LABC and they will issue a completion certificate plus also likely start an investigation on the electrician.
However likely it will cost as much as the job cost in first place to get this paperwork. So a more sensible approach is to ask a scheme member electrician to do an electrical installation condition report (EICR) on the work done and if it passes then do nothing. Not strictly legal way but will insure it's up to standard and your safe.
The rules are two fold one set is not legal but are required to get the legal document the IET/BSi set out what tests should be done and how the forms should be filled in showing the installation is safe. This is the electrical installation certificate (EIC) which can only be completed by person doing the work. The EICR is similar it does not have a signature to say they designed and installed but the important bit testing and inspecting is the same as with an EIC.
The scheme member electrician informs his scheme operator who issue a compliance certificate this is the legal bit. The non scheme member gives the EIC to the owner who in turn sends it to the LABC who issue a completion certificate. The home owner should inform the LABC before the work starts when not using a scheme member electrician. Although officially down to home owner in practice the electrician normally deals with the LABC. However there is a minimum charge so likely means a bill of around £300. So most non scheme member electricians will tell you unless it's part of a larger job then just not worth them doing it because of the LABC charges or they will do the work and not tell the LABC but should still issue an EIC. However the EIC clearly shows they have done the work and many jobs stop their workers from doing other electrical work and there is the tax man so many are loathed to issue something proving they did the work.
The Part P says you must inform LABC for a consumer unit change but to be a consumer unit it has to be installed following all manufacturers instructions if for example a bell transformer was fitted from another manufacturer then it is no longer a consumer unit it becomes a distribution board as no longer type tested. The IET/BSi say with a distribution board it should be looked after by instructed or better person but the IET/BSi regulations are not law but can be used in a court of law.
This is therefore a case of let the courts decide and in real terms the LABC will not take the electrician to court unless either he has done something dangerous or he claimed he was a scheme member and was not. Simply not informing the LABC would not be enough. Although they may tell the tax man.
If an electrician does not say he is a scheme member and he issues an EIC then all he has to say was "I thought the home owner was registering work" and it would be hard to prove he was wrong. However if he does not issue an EIC then clearly he knows the LABC is not being informed as he knows you will need that paperwork.
But in real terms you have to decide is it worth the money to get the paper work? When it happened to me the LABC inspector made it very clear it was up to my dad as the home owner to ensure the LABC was informed although the builder or electrician may often do it for you at the end of the day it's down to the home owner.
Once you tell the LABC there is no going back. I was lucky since work was being done for my mothers disability there was no charge. Had it been my house telling the LABC would have cost me £100 plus vat. At that time the LABC could not charge for using third party testing now they can and in Wales fees are fixed by Welsh Assembly in England it's up to local council so be prepared for around a £300 bill once you tell the LABC.
hi thanks fr your info but still a bit confused ,, do i need a certificate ? the house will be getting rented out also the man told me last night he would not issue it as there is aluminum wire in some parts of the house this is 6 weeks after he fitted a 17th edition consumer unit , surely if this was to be a problem he should have mentioned this in the very beginning . if i do need i certificate for the work , what is the best way to go about getting this done with little fuss and minimum cost please
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OK as to new information yes if rented out all t's crossed and i's dotted so you do need the certificates.
As to aluminium cable unlikely but not impossible 3/0.036 and 7/0.029 imperial cables were often tinned copper and do look like aluminium cables which did appear in the 1970's for a short time.
You are looking for three documents in all.
1) The electrical installation certificate which any scheme member must issue when he fits the consumer unit. He can put limitations on the document and detail where it does not comply with BS7671 but really he has no option he has to issue it. If not a scheme member then you can't really force the issue but any good electrician should issue it and it is required for issue of the next certificate.
2) The next one has two names when issued by a scheme member it's called compliance and when issued by the local authority building control it's call a completion certificate having this is a legal requirement.
3) Since your renting the property you also need an electrical installation condition report (EICR was called PIR) this report should not have any items which say it is dangerous but it is a report and under normal circumstances the electrician would do one of these before he starts to fit a consumer unit to high light any problems so he can price the job. The Certificate again can have limitations for example it could say consumer unit not tested as to be replaced.
In the main having an EICR even if all the others are missing will be good enough as pre-2004 there was no Part P and although certificates should have been issued often they were not and of course electricians can get injured and be unable to issue the other certificates.
But an EICR is a professional option of the electrician not work done so the insurance he needs is professional indemnity not just public liability and your insurance company may not cover you if his insurance does not cover him.
So there is nothing stopping him issuing an installation certificate he's done the work so must issue.
There is also nothing stopping issuing of EICR although it could say unsuitable i.e. it's failed but can still be issued.
As to issue of completion certificate that is up to the LABC he has to decide if he wants remedial work done first.
As to issue of the compliance certificate well he is saying it does not comply so I do see that maybe he would not be able to issue but if that is the case the job is not complete he needs to return and complete it.
I find the rules when faults are found rather odd to say the least. One is not permitted to make a occupied house uninhabitable without finding alternative accommodation for the occupants so on finding a fault one can't simple turn off power be it gas or electric until arrangements have been made.
However once you have permission to turn off the power then you can't re-install the power until it is safe to do so.
So if one has permission to fit a consumer unit then clearly the power is removed and once the work is completed the electrician can only re-instate power to those circuits he deems are safe other wise he must lock off the circuit or leave disconnected.
I have had this myself where when doing the work I have found a fault and I have said to home owner I can't switch it back on but clearly I can't stop him from switching on after I have gone.
But if I switch it one I can't then the next day decide maybe that was not a good idea and switch it off again without permission. At least not something which is required to make the home inhabitable. In commercial premises it is very different if I find a fault and don't switch it off I can be taken to court.
I think the rules were made to stop people turning off power for non payment etc but it does mean as electricians we have to be very careful we may think we are helping the house holder by giving them power when we go home for the night but should the owner next day say sorry my situation has changed I don't want you to continue we can't run in and turn off the power because not complete.
If the house in not occupied then he has no excuse he should not re-instate power until safe.
Heath and safety is an odd one out. Contracts can be verbal but any health and safety items have to be in writing so he would need to send you a text, email or letter saying the installation is unsafe phone is not good enough.
This is really why we have all the paper work to start with. If I write on an installation report aluminium cable found on the XYZ circuit this circuit has been left switched off until corrected this protects me as well as you as it shows you were told about the fault.
As to aluminium cable unlikely but not impossible 3/0.036 and 7/0.029 imperial cables were often tinned copper and do look like aluminium cables which did appear in the 1970's for a short time.
You are looking for three documents in all.
1) The electrical installation certificate which any scheme member must issue when he fits the consumer unit. He can put limitations on the document and detail where it does not comply with BS7671 but really he has no option he has to issue it. If not a scheme member then you can't really force the issue but any good electrician should issue it and it is required for issue of the next certificate.
2) The next one has two names when issued by a scheme member it's called compliance and when issued by the local authority building control it's call a completion certificate having this is a legal requirement.
3) Since your renting the property you also need an electrical installation condition report (EICR was called PIR) this report should not have any items which say it is dangerous but it is a report and under normal circumstances the electrician would do one of these before he starts to fit a consumer unit to high light any problems so he can price the job. The Certificate again can have limitations for example it could say consumer unit not tested as to be replaced.
In the main having an EICR even if all the others are missing will be good enough as pre-2004 there was no Part P and although certificates should have been issued often they were not and of course electricians can get injured and be unable to issue the other certificates.
But an EICR is a professional option of the electrician not work done so the insurance he needs is professional indemnity not just public liability and your insurance company may not cover you if his insurance does not cover him.
So there is nothing stopping him issuing an installation certificate he's done the work so must issue.
There is also nothing stopping issuing of EICR although it could say unsuitable i.e. it's failed but can still be issued.
As to issue of completion certificate that is up to the LABC he has to decide if he wants remedial work done first.
As to issue of the compliance certificate well he is saying it does not comply so I do see that maybe he would not be able to issue but if that is the case the job is not complete he needs to return and complete it.
I find the rules when faults are found rather odd to say the least. One is not permitted to make a occupied house uninhabitable without finding alternative accommodation for the occupants so on finding a fault one can't simple turn off power be it gas or electric until arrangements have been made.
However once you have permission to turn off the power then you can't re-install the power until it is safe to do so.
So if one has permission to fit a consumer unit then clearly the power is removed and once the work is completed the electrician can only re-instate power to those circuits he deems are safe other wise he must lock off the circuit or leave disconnected.
I have had this myself where when doing the work I have found a fault and I have said to home owner I can't switch it back on but clearly I can't stop him from switching on after I have gone.
But if I switch it one I can't then the next day decide maybe that was not a good idea and switch it off again without permission. At least not something which is required to make the home inhabitable. In commercial premises it is very different if I find a fault and don't switch it off I can be taken to court.
I think the rules were made to stop people turning off power for non payment etc but it does mean as electricians we have to be very careful we may think we are helping the house holder by giving them power when we go home for the night but should the owner next day say sorry my situation has changed I don't want you to continue we can't run in and turn off the power because not complete.
If the house in not occupied then he has no excuse he should not re-instate power until safe.
Heath and safety is an odd one out. Contracts can be verbal but any health and safety items have to be in writing so he would need to send you a text, email or letter saying the installation is unsafe phone is not good enough.
This is really why we have all the paper work to start with. If I write on an installation report aluminium cable found on the XYZ circuit this circuit has been left switched off until corrected this protects me as well as you as it shows you were told about the fault.
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As a post script although there is problems with aluminium cables it is not banned as such. What it says is the minimum size of a cable is 16mm² rather then 1mm².
ok guys thanks alot for the info really do appreciate it i have a new electrician who is
Part P Approved - NICEIC registered can you just tell me what i really need to be asking this guy to do for me and what i really need as i have not got a clue about any of this stuff when i hired the man who done the work he said he could issue everything now he is refusing to do this as i changed 3 light switches BEFORE he started the work and he was aware of this but now he is saying its becouse i have fitted a defuser dont even know what this is so if any one can advise me on what i need to ask for and what i dont really need so i do not get conned again please thanks every one rob
Part P Approved - NICEIC registered can you just tell me what i really need to be asking this guy to do for me and what i really need as i have not got a clue about any of this stuff when i hired the man who done the work he said he could issue everything now he is refusing to do this as i changed 3 light switches BEFORE he started the work and he was aware of this but now he is saying its becouse i have fitted a defuser dont even know what this is so if any one can advise me on what i need to ask for and what i dont really need so i do not get conned again please thanks every one rob
They can inspect and test the installation to identify any faults, and carry out repairs if necessary.
They cannot notify building control or anyone else, as they did not install the consumer unit.
For notification, your only option now is to contact building control and pay for regularisation.
What this involves depends on them - typically they will need to visit and inspect the work done, they may send their own electrician to do various tests, etc. It will certainly involve paying a substantial fee.
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I would advise you ask the new electrician what he can do to help and let him advise you.
What "flameport" says is correct in theory, but in practice some electricians are more helpful then others. Clearly if you tell him you have been on a forum and told people what has happened he may be worried that if he bends any rules he may get identified and loose his self certification because of what you have said on a forum.
So I would now just ask him and see what he says.
What "flameport" says is correct in theory, but in practice some electricians are more helpful then others. Clearly if you tell him you have been on a forum and told people what has happened he may be worried that if he bends any rules he may get identified and loose his self certification because of what you have said on a forum.
So I would now just ask him and see what he says.
You could ask the new electrician to remove and refit the consumer unit!
And I would also consider a smalls claims court action the previous electrician!
And I would also consider a smalls claims court action the previous electrician!
That rule seems to me like it was desgined to effectively block the use of aliuminium in normal domestic/light commercial final circuit while still alllowing it's use for high current distribution wiring
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