Consumer unit breakers

[JohnW2]

So I reached the point where I genuinely believed that the only thing anybody should tell him was "get an electrician". ... As far as I can tell there isn't a single person here, apart from the OP, who doesn't also believe that.

Indeed. However, at least for me, the important question is whether there is a single person here who believes that he is going to "get an electrician", or whether they believe that he will probably press on with the work, with or without advice as to how to do it more safely than would be the case without such advice.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Maybe he actually believes that everyone else is wrong and his approach of calling people stupid f***ers really is most effective in getting people to change their behaviour.

And you can show where I've done that here, can you?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

even if it can be argued that by refusing to ('pragmatically') give 'mitigating' (even if not 'best') advice, he may well be increasing the risks to those he is 'advising'.

No - it is they who are increasing their risks by refusing to follow the appropriate course.

Indeed. However, at least for me, the important question is whether there is a single person here who believes that he is going to "get an electrician", or whether they believe that he will probably press on with the work, with or without advice as to how to do it more safely than would be the case without such advice.

Press on regardless, I'm sure.

Entirely his decision, entirely his responsibility, entirely his fault.

 

[JohnW2]

However, accepting the above, I think we probably should also ask you (in the context to which we are referring): "What do your posts hope to achieve in terms of the safety of the individual concerned, others in his house and the property itself?"

The taking of the best advice possible.

Yes, but that's a Utopian view. The question is what you want to achieve if, in a real world situation, it is apparent that 'the best advice possible' is not going to be taken. Does one then refuse to give any (even if not 'best') advice, or does one try to make the best of the situation as it is. You clearly take the former view, but by no means everyone would.

We're really back to the medical analogy.

Which is badly flawed. ... You cannot compare someone making a conscious decision to do electrical work which they are incompetent to do with someone who is addicted, or habitualised/ conditioned to modes of behaviour, or who lacks willpower etc.

OK, I can perhaps 'unflaw' the analogy a bit. Given that the 'best advice' would be to cease the behaviour in question and that, as you say, it might well be difficult/impossible for the patient to do that alone, the doctor's first advice/offer should be to provide assistance with changing those behaviours. If the patient consciously decided to decline that offer but to carry on behaving the same, should the doctor then refuse to advise/ assist/ treat in relation to the consequences of that ongoing behaviour?

A much better medical analogy would be someone who was not a heroin user going to his doctor and saying "I've decided to start using heroin, will you help me please?"

You may think that's hypothetical, but I've heard of, or come across, real cases very close to that The point here is that the person (like the electrical DIYer) does not need help to start using heroin (or replace a CU, or whatever), since they have already decided to do that. The more likely question (which one does sometimes hear in one form or another) is "I have decided to start using heroin (or become a prostitute, or whatever), and nothing is going to change that decision, but can you advise me as to how to reduce/ minimise the risks of what I have decided to do". It would be wrong, and generally unacceptable, for the doctor to refuse to answer that question as best they could (after, of course, strongly presenting the 'best advice' that they shouldn't do what they are intending to do).

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

even if it can be argued that by refusing to ('pragmatically') give 'mitigating' (even if not 'best') advice, he may well be increasing the risks to those he is 'advising'.

No - it is they who are increasing their risks by refusing to follow the appropriate course.

No-one is denying that - but you will often have it in your power to help them reduce the risks which they are bringing on themselves ... but you feel that you should refuse to do so, 'on principle'.

Entirely his decision, entirely his responsibility, entirely his fault.

Indeed, but see above. Were you not constrained by your principles, you would often be able to help them reduce the risks resulting from their 'decision, responsibility and fault' - but you seemingly feel it appropriate not to.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ekmdgrf]

even if it can be argued that by refusing to ('pragmatically') give 'mitigating' (even if not 'best') advice, he may well be increasing the risks to those he is 'advising'.

No - it is they who are increasing their risks by refusing to follow the appropriate course.

Indeed. However, at least for me, the important question is whether there is a single person here who believes that he is going to "get an electrician", or whether they believe that he will probably press on with the work, with or without advice as to how to do it more safely than would be the case without such advice.

Press on regardless, I'm sure.

Entirely his decision, entirely his responsibility, entirely his fault.

Ahh, so the point is that although you have the power to affect a better outcome you don't believe you should* as you believe that the responsibility is on the other person.

You might be interested to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment **

* By better outcome, I mean using social engineering to increase the probability of your advice being followed, rather than changing your advice

** The irony of electrocution is not lost on me

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've heard it all before.

You are all wrong.

I am right.

End of.

 

[JohnW2]

I've heard it all before. You are all wrong. I am right. End of.

That's probably about it. After so many runs of this discussion over the years, I think I fully understand your views and position, hence the only approach which you feel is right for you, and with which you feel comfortable - so there is no need or point in further discussion/debate. I fully respect your right to have that view and, indeed, can but praise the strength which which you uphold principles in which you clearly sincerely believe.

You are right, and everyone else wrong, only in terms of your own views about the matter - and that's fine. However, that does not mean that everyone else holds the same views. Even you presumably don't believe that you are the ultimate determinant of what is right and wrong. In any event, the whole discussion centres around the fact that, for many of us, the decisions cannot be reduced to a black-and-white 'right and wrong' - in the real world, one often has to decide between 'better' and 'worse'.

It is perhaps unfortunate that this discussion is happening, this time, in the context of this particular thread since, as I have said, the situation is so extreme that I personally would not feel comfortable 'becoming involved' in giving specific advice on a pragmatic basis - so, in this particular case, I'm essentially taking the same position as you, in not feeling it appropriate for me to give any advice other than "don't attempt to do it yourself" and "get an electrician". However, in relation to many other threads, my view that the giving of advice is sometimes, pragmatically, the lesser of evils will always differ from your view and approach.

However, no matter what advice you feel you have to give, as ekmdgrf has said, and as so many of us have previously said, so many times, over the years, I am sure that if only you could find a way of changing your 'style' your advice (even your 'best advice') would be much more likely to be heeded, at least in some cases. As things are, your style so often works against the achieving of the very things which you are trying to achieve - which I think is a great pity.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ekmdgrf]

I've heard it all before.

You are all wrong.

I am right.

End of.

So really you're just the same as the OP. You don't like taking advice either.

 

[davebullocklive]

deleted

 

[AndyPRK]

Yeah it's safe if the sockets are a ring.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However, no matter what advice you feel you have to give, as ekmdgrf has said, and as so many of us have previously said, so many times, over the years, I am sure that if only you could find a way of changing your 'style' your advice (even your 'best advice') would be much more likely to be heeded, at least in some cases. As things are, your style so often works against the achieving of the very things which you are trying to achieve - which I think is a great pity.

There's nothing wrong with my style of writing.

Any perceived problems are actually to do with things wrong with people's style of reading.

 

[JohnW2]

There's nothing wrong with my style of writing.

So long as you believe that, I feel sure that you will repeatedly fail to achieve what you want to achieve with so many of your posts, particularly when you are giving 'the best advice' - which, as I said, is a pity. I'm a little surprised that someone who is clearly as passionate as you are to get across your important messages does not feel it appropriate, if not essential, to optimise the way in which those messages are presented. However, it's obviously all up to you.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So long as you believe that, I feel sure that you will repeatedly fail to achieve what you want to achieve with so many of your posts, particularly when you are giving 'the best advice'

But I am not failing to give the best advice.

which, as I said, is a pity. I'm a little surprised that someone who is clearly as passionate as you are to get across your important messages does not feel it appropriate, if not essential, to optimise the way in which those messages are presented.

They are presented properly.

What is sub-optimal is the way some people read them.

Their fault, their problem, their loss.

 

[JohnW2]

But I am not failing to give the best advice.

You aren't. However, you are failing to give that advice in a manner which optimises the chances of that advice being heeded - which I presume is what you would like to happen.

They are presented properly. What is sub-optimal is the way some people read them. Their fault, their problem, their loss.

... and, so often, your unnecessarily wasted effort.

Sigh.

Kind Regards,