Consumer Unit question....

[electricalkid]

not quite sure what went wrong with the last post by me, but i'm sure you will get my point !!

 

[Big_Spark]

not quite sure what went wrong with the last post by me, but i'm sure you will get my point !!

Confused me at first..but then I figured out what you did...

If you want to split a post by someone, after the first section you wish to quote you need to add the close quote marks..as in [/quote]

Then is you use copy/paste, you can take the original poster part at the start and paste it above the next piece to be quoted..etc..

So it would be..

{quote="Big Spark"} Bla Bla Bla{/quote}

Actually I don't agree with that...

{quote="Big Spark"} Flap Flap Flap{/quote}

Now that is more like it..

Obviously the {} tags would need to be changed for the [] tags.

Regarding the Test certificate thingy...I have a copy of all those for my property that I rent out..tennant change, I get the gas checked and I give it a PIR...I also know a Manaing agent that does this as well..if their Landlords do not agree to it..they don't manage their properties...although i accept this is the exception not the rule..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

as the property is being used for commercial purposes then the Electricity at Work Regulations Act 1989

It's a property which has a commercial value to the owner, but it is not comercial premises in the sense of it being anybody's place of work, so the EAWR do not apply to it.

Do you know that everytime a tennant moves out of your property it is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT that the Electrical and Gas installations of the property MUST be inspected and certified, even if covered by an existing certificate.

What law is that?

 

[Big_Spark]

as the property is being used for commercial purposes then the Electricity at Work Regulations Act 1989

It's a property which has a commercial value to the owner, but it is not comercial premises in the sense of it being anybody's place of work, so the EAWR do not apply to it.

Yes they do..whether the relevent authorities choose to apply them or not is a different matter..but everytime a person goes there to work for the landlord or everytime the Landlord or an employee enters the premises or a managing agent enters the premises the EAWRA applies...Simple fact.

Do you know that everytime a tennant moves out of your property it is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT that the Electrical and Gas installations of the property MUST be inspected and certified, even if covered by an existing certificate.

What law is that?

Why don't you look it up...off the top of my head I could not quote the actual Act, but I do believe that it is the same act that governs the actions of Landlords etc...could be wrong though..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes they do..whether the relevent authorities choose to apply them or not is a different matter..but everytime a person goes there to work for the landlord or everytime the Landlord or an employee enters the premises or a managing agent enters the premises the EAWRA applies...Simple fact.

No more a "simple fact" than when any electrician working for reward in any premises could be said to be at a "place of work".

Statutory Instrument 1989 No. 635 The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989

Please tell me if you can find any reference to any of the following:

dwelling
house
householder
landlord
tenant

because I can't. (admittedly, I did not search in Part III - Regulations Applying to Mines Only, or Schedule 1 - Provisions applying to mines only and having effect in particular in relation to the use below ground in coal mines of film lighting circuits, mainly because I assumed the properties under discussion were dwellings, not mines).

as the property is being used for commercial purposes then the Electricity at Work Regulations Act 1989 and several other pieces of legislation comes into force, as such only QUALIFIED electricians should work on the installation.

The other thing you'll search in vain for in the EAWR is any requirement for people to be qualified.

Why don't you look it up...off the top of my head I could not quote the actual Act, but I do believe that it is the same act that governs the actions of Landlords etc...could be wrong though..

Because I've got no idea where to look. I know that the gas regs have requirements like that, but I've never come across anything regarding electrics. I thought that as you were so adamant about it that you would know which law...could be wrong though..

 

[Big_Spark]

BAS..instead of searching..I suggest you read the ENTIRE Act and it's supplements...Then do a Law degree so you can interpret it.

I take my interpretation from those in the KNOW..It is not my interpretation...

Other Regulations you might like to reference are..

Health and Safety at Work Act (as amended)

The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999

Electrical Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002 (Only Vaguely Relevent as it is a watered down Electrical Supply Act replacement)

Memorandum of Guidance on the Electricity at Work regulations 1989

The Workplace (Health and Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 (European Directive 89/654/EEC

These all have implications when employing people to work in any PLACE OF WORK. Yes they are aimed at Commercial/Industrial premises, but a property that is owned purely for commercial gain can be interpreted as such a place, even if domestic in nature. If the person paying for the work to be done does not reside in the premises then they have a legal responsibilty as detailed in these Acts. However they person doing the work, if self-employed or a seperate company, also has a legal responsibility under these Acts.

With domestic premises these are grey areas of the law, but they do all apply..technically...whether they are ever likely to be enforced is a wholly different matter..

 

[Chris.J]

[quote="

Do you know that everytime a tennant moves out of your property it is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT that the Electrical and Gas installations of the property MUST be inspected and certified, even if covered by an existing certificate.[/quote][/quote]

If you look at www.residentiallandlord.co.uk/feature10.htm
or
www.landlordzone.co.uk/electricalsafety.htm
They both say there is no legal requirement to have checks done on tenant c/o, but consider it advisable. I read from this that the landlord can then prove that he took significant steps to ensure the systems were safe, gives him a better standing if anything went wrong later.
Gas advice is slightly tricker, as a leaving tenant could have left something unsafe, and the only way to really check is to get another "annual" check done.
If something went wrong shortly after a new tenant moved in, and the landlord said that he only visually inspected all the gas appliances, and that they appeared to work ok, then whether that would be "due diligance" would probably depend on how big the bang was??

 

[baldelectrician]

They are going to make landlords electrical safety checks mandatory (in Scotland anyway)

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2005/11/24171426

The sooner the better.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS..instead of searching..I suggest you read the ENTIRE Act and it's supplements...

Well - I have read the entire SI. The search comment was to highlight the point that the SI contains none of those terms.

As for "supplements", I've searched the OPSI site for Acts and SIs containing the phrase "Electricity at Work Regulations", and as well as Statutory Instrument 1989 No. 635 itself, I found the following:

Statutory Instrument 1997 No. 1993 The Offshore Electricity and Noise Regulations 1997

Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2550 The Electrical Equipment for Explosive Atmospheres (Certification) (Amendment) Regulations 1999

Statutory Instruments 1999 No. 2024 The Quarries Regulations 1999

Statutory Instrument 1992 No. 3073 The Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 1992

Statutory Instrument 1995 No. 2005 The Mines Miscellaneous Health and Safety Provisions Regulations 1995

Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 192 The Equipment and Protective Systems Intended for Use in Potentially Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 1996

so I don't think there are amy amending SIs that deal with rented accommodation.

Then do a Law degree so you can interpret it.

I don't need a law degree to read English and use my common sense.

I take my interpretation from those in the KNOW..It is not my interpretation...

But are you sure you've understood what they say? That you've not misremembered or misinterpreted it? Are you sure that they actually know?

Other Regulations you might like to reference are..

Health and Safety at Work Act (as amended)

The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999

Electrical Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002 (Only Vaguely Relevent as it is a watered down Electrical Supply Act replacement)

Memorandum of Guidance on the Electricity at Work regulations 1989

The Workplace (Health and Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 (European Directive 89/654/EEC

These all have implications when employing people to work in any PLACE OF WORK. Yes they are aimed at Commercial/Industrial premises, but a property that is owned purely for commercial gain can be interpreted as such a place, even if domestic in nature.

I don't think it can, any more than can any domestic premises where an electrician is employed to carry out work. The fact that a dwelling is rented does not affect the extent to which it is a place of work for an electrician.

If the person paying for the work to be done does not reside in the premises then they have a legal responsibilty as detailed in these Acts.

Paying a tradesman to carry out work, whether as a homeowner, or as a landlord does not make you that tradesman's employer, so you have none of the duties or responsibilities of an employer defined in these laws.

However they person doing the work, if self-employed or a seperate company, also has a legal responsibility under these Acts.

With domestic premises these are grey areas of the law, but they do all apply..technically...whether they are ever likely to be enforced is a wholly different matter..

I agree that it is awkward to apply the EAWR to a dwelling wherein an employed or self-employed person is working, and the same would apply to any other laws or regulations governing the actions of employers and employees at places of work.

If there had been any clear-cut requirements in any legislation which meant that employed or self-employed electricians had to be qualified then I'm sure that the lawyers in NICEIC/NAPIT/ECA would have spotted them, and used them as a basis for acquiring control rather than the years of lobbying and the work that got us Part P.

 

[Big_Spark]

BAS..The Health and Safety at Work Act and the Management of Health and Safety at Work Act (Which cover Commercial work places of work) are clear that any persons undertaking Electrical work should be Competent to an industry recognised nationally agreed standard..Now if you know of a standard that is recognised nationally by the Industry that does not mean someone requires formal qualifications then please do explain to me and the nation..there isn't one.

As such, the EAWR requires this as it is quoted, along with BS7671:2004 and numerous other related Acts and Memoranda that both you and I have listed, by the HSWA and the MHSWA, furthermore, not complying with this requirement of the Act is likely to mean the voiding of any insurance Policy, which for commercial premises requires that all work be carried out by

competent persons under the direct supervision of or be persons who have reached a level of training that is recognised nationally by the Electrical Contracting Industry and they should be employed by or be a member of an Insurance Industry recognised Scheme such as the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC) or the International Standards Organisation (ISO)

The above quote is from the small print of my commercial policy for my house I rent out.

Now I accept that the law has left loopholes big enough to drive a Ferry through, but I do believe that the reading of the Acts (In conjunction and cross referencing) will leave the majority of people with the impression that the only answer is qualified personel. This is a requirement of the NICEIC, the ECA and the ISO for certification, the only exception is people who are under the supervision of a qualified Electrician and are either training to be electricians on nationally recognised courses or suitably qualified in other areas of the electrical industry.

Now I have actually spoken to my insurers on this very point today, and they stated that they require all such personel to be qualified in any property they carry a commercial Policy on, and that if a client is renting out a property then they should have a commercial policy on it. They would probably void a policy if any electrical work was carried out by persons who did not have Industry recognised formal qualifications.

The other aspect of this which both of us have so far not touched on, is the requirements of the local authority that a respective property falls under..to be honest when I frst started renting I forgot them too...but many councils have bylaws etc that apply to rented accomodation...

I think Scotland is going the right route, and I can see the rest of the UK following therafter.

 

[Big_Spark]

Chris...those sites are aimed at Landords and run by Landlords..and to be hnest they have their own agenda. Much of what they say appears to be true, certainly where Gas and Furniture is concerned..

However there is a glaring mistake

This is a quote from your second website (The Landlord Zone)

If you let property you must ensure that the electrical system and all appliances supplied are safe - failure to comply with the regulations is a criminal offence and may result in:

A fine of £5,000 per item not complying
Six month's imprisonment
Possible manslaughter charges in the even of deaths
The Tenant may also sue you for civil damages
Your property insurance may be invalidated
These regulations are enforced by the Health & Safety Executive.

There is no statutory requirement to have annual safety checks on electrical equipment as there is with gas, but it is advisable for landlords to have periodic checks done by a qualified electrician.

This is misleading, somethings are ANNUAL and somethings have other time frames imposed upon them..Try the PAT testing regulations.

Here is another quote from an independant source..TLC direct..

The Health & Safety Executive states that 25% of all reportable electrical accidents involve portable appliances. The Electricity at Work Regulations place a legal responsibility on employers, employees and self-employed persons to comply with the provisions of the regulations and take reasonably practicable steps to ensure that no danger results from the use of such equipment. This in effect requires the implementation of a systematic and regular program of maintenance, inspection and testing. The Health & Safety at Work Act (1974) places such an obligation in the following circumstances:

1. Where appliances are used by employees.

2. Where the public may use appliances in establishments such as hospitals, schools, hotels, shops etc.

3. Where appliances are supplied or hired.

4. Where appliances are repaired or serviced.

The two I have highlighted have a bearing on a rented property if it contains electrical appliances.

And here is another quote..

The legislation of specific relevance to electrical maintenance is the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974, the Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999, the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989, the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 and the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998.

The Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 puts the duty of care upon both the employer and the employee to ensure the safety of all persons using the work premises. This includes the self employed.

The Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999 state:
"Every employer shall make suitable and sufficient assessment of:

(a) the risks to the health and safety of his employees to which they are exposed whilst at work, and

(b) the risks to ensure the health and safety of persons not in his employment arising out of or in connection with the conduct by him or his undertaking."

The Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 state:

"Every employer shall ensure that work equipment is so constructed or adapted as to be suitable for which it is provided."

The PUWER 1998 covers most risks that can result from using work equipment. With respect to risks from electricity, compliance with the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 is likely to achieve compliance with the PUWER 1998.

PUWER 1998 only applies to work equipment used by workers at work. This includes all work equipment (fixed, transportable or portable) connected to a source of electrical energy. PUWER does not apply to fixed installations in a building. The electrical safety of these installations is dealt with only by the Electricity at Work Regulations.

The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 state:
"All systems shall at all times be of such construction as to prevent, so far as reasonably practicable, such danger."

"As may be necessary to prevent danger, all systems shall be maintained so as to prevent, so far as reasonably practicable, such danger."

"'System' means an electrical system in which all the electrical equipment is, or may be, electrically connected to a common source of electrical energy and includes such source and such equipment"

"'Electrical Equipment' includes anything used, intended to be used or installed for use, to generate, provide, transmit, transform, rectify, convert, conduct, distribute, control, store, measure or use electrical energy."

Scope of the legislation

It is clear that the combination of the HSW Act 1974, the PUWER 1998 and the EAW Regulations 1989 apply to all electrical equipment used in, or associated with, places of work. The scope extends from distribution systems down to the smallest piece of electrical equipment.

It is clear that there is a requirement to inspect and test all types of electrical equipment in all work situations..

Now I know these can be read several ways...but as a rented property can also be viewed as one of the Landlords places of work, afterall they are undertaking a commercial venture when attending..the Acts apply.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS..The Health and Safety at Work Act and the Management of Health and Safety at Work Act (Which cover Commercial work places of work) are clear that any persons undertaking Electrical work should be Competent to an industry recognised nationally agreed standard..Now if you know of a standard that is recognised nationally by the Industry that does not mean someone requires formal qualifications then please do explain to me and the nation..there isn't one.

Then why did we ever need Part P?

If a dwelling is a place of work, and therefore needs the people who work in it to be qualified, then what you are saying is that there has always been a sound and obvious way to prevent unqualified plumbers/kitchen fitters etc from doing electrical work in dwellings.

The issue of who owns a dwelling cannot have any bearing on the extent to which it counts as a place of work for someone who is not an employee of the owner.

As such, the EAWR requires this as it is quoted, along with BS7671:2004 and numerous other related Acts and Memoranda that both you and I have listed, by the HSWA and the MHSWA, furthermore, not complying with this requirement of the Act is likely to mean the voiding of any insurance Policy, which for commercial premises requires that all work be carried out by

etc
etc
etc
<snipped>

Insurance is a whole different matter, and insurances for rented accommodation may well be written by the "commercial" part of an insurance company, and may well specify that electrical work must be carried out by electricians with recognised qualifications.

But that doesn't mean that the law says so.

but as a rented property can also be viewed as one of the Landlords places of work, afterall they are undertaking a commercial venture when attending..the Acts apply.

That argument may well work, and may well prevent an unqualified landlord from working on the electrics in his properties, but it wouldn't affect the position of somebody he had contracted to carry out the work.

 

[Chris.J]

Chris...those sites are aimed at Landords and run by Landlords..and to be hnest they have their own agenda.

Big Spark, of course they have their own agenda; it's to ensure Landlords are aware of their responsibliities.
If there was a legal requirement for a PIR on tenant c/o, or PAT testing of all the appliances, i'me sure they would know about it & advise accordingly.

Quote Big Spark : --However there is a glaring mistake

This is a quote from your second website (The Landlord Zone)

If you let property you must ensure that the electrical system and all appliances supplied are safe - failure to comply with the regulations is a criminal offence and may result in:

A fine of £5,000 per item not complying
Six month's imprisonment
Possible manslaughter charges in the even of deaths
The Tenant may also sue you for civil damages
Your property insurance may be invalidated
These regulations are enforced by the Health & Safety Executive.

There is no statutory requirement to have annual safety checks on electrical equipment as there is with gas, but it is advisable for landlords to have periodic checks done by a qualified electrician.

This is misleading, somethings are ANNUAL and somethings have other time frames imposed upon them..Try the PAT testing regulations.end quote

Where's the glaring mistake?
Makes sense to me.

Fundamentally, you are considering a rented property as a "place of work", therefore frequent PAT testing would be needed.
However, a rented property is not; it's just a domestic property that happens to be rented out. So logically, the electrical side needs no more testing than does your own home. However, it's obvious that the l/l must provide a safe system/appliances, and thats what all the advice on the l/l sites say.
However, as the Health & Safety Exec. are the ones who "Police" this, their opinion would be interesting?

 

[cozycats]

After various incidents which resulted in certainly one death locally in rented accommodation, although much of the "safety" cert and pat testing etc is not actually a legal requirement most landlords now do it to cover their backsides. THAT'S what it really comes down to, who really cares if BAS or whoever else is technically correct. Can you afford the prospect of spending 4-10 weeks in a courtroom?

 

[Bazdaa]

After various incidents which resulted in certainly one death locally in rented accommodation, although much of the "safety" cert and pat testing etc is not actually a legal requirement most landlords now do it to cover their backsides. THAT'S what it really comes down to, who really cares if BAS or whoever else is technically correct. Can you afford the prospect of spending 4-10 weeks in a courtroom?

Amen to that!