convert unvented cylinder to heat bank with combi and PV immersion

Hi Bernard and Tony, Thanks for your replies, I completely agree with what you say but it will be me who fixes it, we're never leaving this house and I`m doing the best I can with what is available,

But it is not the best you can!

The best is that which costs least and saves most.

That will be an unvented cylinder heated by surplus PV generation and supplemented by gas heating during the winter.

Tony


Yes Tony, If I had a fully serviceable unvented cylinder I may agree but this one is only good for unvented now and I still have the same functionality.

I take it you're not a fan of heat banks or thermal stores then?

I'm waiting for all those early unvented cylinders with electronic anodes that have had the red light blinking away for years because the customer knows nothing about them....slowly rusting away inside, till they go bang.

There's plenty of safeguards against over pressure built in but what happens when a neglected cylinder can't take the 3 bar? but of course everyone gets the tank serviced regularly don't they?
 
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IIRC the maximum differential pressure for a v4043 is 0.6bar - I'm thinking other makes are probably similar. Your mains will almost certainly be more.

I don't see any problem with building a thermal store but I think bringing in combi preheat etc brings a level of complexity to this above and beyond what is required.

My 160litre store needs keeping nearly completely hot for a (p-shaped) full bath's worth of hot water, so I'm thinking that your 300litre store will need keeping at least half hot for the same. I can see with solar you'd expect to need part of the store cold sometimes (ready to add CO2 heavy heat later) so I think the idea of running the rads off the store is a non starter.

Also you may want to consider the relative positions of the coil and immersion element, as using the pv you'd want the immersion at the very bottom and the coil halfway up, I suspect they will not be that way round on your cylinder.
 
I've just converted my vented cylinder to a thermal store, as it was a relatively low cost option. It's satisfactory but an unvented would perform better and be simpler. So I don't get why the extraordinary level of complication? I'm sure maintenance costs alone would wipe out any savings you would achieve.

Hi Mogget, Thanks for your post.
How are you getting on with your thermal store?
Why do you feel an unvented would be better? an unvented is limited to about 3 bar, if yours is installed correctly you can have whatever pressure your mains water can deliver, or be boosted to if you're in a low pressure area.

I'm not converting an existing (working) unvented system, I'm using the cylinder as a large well insulated unvented as you have done.
As I like playing with things I'm trying to make it as efficient as possible. The design is a hybrid & is`designed` to overcome the limitations and disadvantages of each system on its own.
The maintenance will be done by me or my plumber mate depending what is required so the cost will be minimal.
I would not advertise this as being suitable for anyone without ties to the trade who has to pay for labour.
 
IIRC the maximum differential pressure for a v4043 is 0.6bar - I'm thinking other makes are probably similar. Your mains will almost certainly be more.

I don't see any problem with building a thermal store but I think bringing in combi preheat etc brings a level of complexity to this above and beyond what is required.

My 160litre store needs keeping nearly completely hot for a (p-shaped) full bath's worth of hot water, so I'm thinking that your 300litre store will need keeping at least half hot for the same. I can see with solar you'd expect to need part of the store cold sometimes (ready to add CO2 heavy heat later) so I think the idea of running the rads off the store is a non starter.

Also you may want to consider the relative positions of the coil and immersion element, as using the pv you'd want the immersion at the very bottom and the coil halfway up, I suspect they will not be that way round on your cylinder.

Hi Mogget,
I see our posts crossed, thank you for taking the time to research the pressures.
I must however disagree with your conclusions.
The maximum differential pressure of the valves wouldn't really apply as the tap or shower would be turned off first, which would build up the pressure in the pipework either side of the valve so no differential pressure, if the changeover happened mid flow then the water in the pipe downstream wouldn't drop to zero immediately either otherwise you would just have a dribble at the shower.
I would be using a normally open valve for the PHE valve and a normally closed for the combi anyway so you wouldn't get a situation where the downstream pipe was empty and the upstream fully pressurised with both valves closed, even after a drain down.
The rads and UFH are run from the lower half of the tank which is where the tappings are, the top of the tank is reserved for the DHW.
As this is solar PV we don't need to keep the bottom of the tank cold as you would with solar thermal and the position of the immersion is fine further up the tank as the elements get much hotter than the 80`c which is the maximum the tank would actually be set to.
As the coil tappings are near the center of the tank, the heating (which I`ll be circulating at about 40`C max) wouldn't affect the DHW at the top of the tank much at all.
Having the immersion at the bottom would be counter productive as it would be heating the cold water and expecting it to rise without heating the rest of the cold water around it by convection, the recharge times would be horrendous.
With the immersion around halfway up, the top of the tank would be heated quicker and the heat would work its way down the tank and stratify nicely.
 
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Hi Timb138,

You ask how I'm getting on with the thermal store. 40kW worth of hot water is great for showers and filling the bath quickly, but due to the non modulating pump what you can't do is draw hot water off slowly for a long period of time. So your shower is over after 10 mins or so, whether you run it fast or slowly, difference being is you run it slowly, more heat is left in the tank. It's OK in everyday use but when it all eventually goes wrong it will be replaced with an unvented. I hope that doesn't happen for a long time though. I may consider at some point sorting out a modulating pump for it along with the necessary controls. My water pressure is about 2.8 bar max and is plenty so I'm not concerned with the 3 bar limitation for an unvented cylinder eventually, as I've now found a route for the discharge pipe.
 
OP, you seem to imagine that you can supply water to your Biasi at 30 C.

But what you dont seem to know is that the boiler only has a turn down ratio of about 1:3 so it will be likely to have a problem controlling the outlet temperature at less than the maximum flow rate.

That can cause on/off modulation and wide fluctuations in the output temperature.

As manufacturers, Biasi will not approve of you doing that because of the risk of legionella.

Tony
 
Hi Timb138,

You ask how I'm getting on with the thermal store. 40kW worth of hot water is great for showers and filling the bath quickly, but due to the non modulating pump what you can't do is draw hot water off slowly for a long period of time. So your shower is over after 10 mins or so, whether you run it fast or slowly, difference being is you run it slowly, more heat is left in the tank. It's OK in everyday use but when it all eventually goes wrong it will be replaced with an unvented. I hope that doesn't happen for a long time though. I may consider at some point sorting out a modulating pump for it along with the necessary controls. My water pressure is about 2.8 bar max and is plenty so I'm not concerned with the 3 bar limitation for an unvented cylinder eventually, as I've now found a route for the discharge pipe.

what thermal store?
 
Diy thermal store coverted from my cylinder using mostly spare parts.
 
Probably a grundfos upm3 with a PICAXE pwm controller sensing both waste heat and dhw temp, because I can't program an arduino.
 
As manufacturers, Biasi will not approve of you doing that because of the risk of legionella.
Yeah think I said that they wouldn't, even though I won't be storing the water as it's straight off the phe so the chances of anything growing is non existent.

The boiler dhw temperature is fully adjustable down to about 20'c so I think I'll be OK with it modulating down.
 
The boiler dhw temperature is fully adjustable down to about 20'c so I think I'll be OK with it modulating down.

You think that because you don't understand how boilers control the hot water temperature!

Tony
 

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