converting a spur to ringmain socket in kitchen/utility room

[dandt]

Presently I have a spur going from kitchen to utility room which powers 3 appliances! I have plans to use more and so ideally would like to make this part of the ring main so that oveloading is not an issue. [I wish i had done it 4 yrs ago when I bought the house and before certain replastering took place - ho hum]
I am capable of this job, but have 3 quick qus before I start
1) Is there any chance I can use the perfectly good red/black cable I bought a few yrs ago, on the grounds that I am replacing rather than creating [doubt if anyone will commit themselves to saying yes]
2) If not this will be the only stretch of brown/blue cable in house...do I have to put a special warning sticker anywhere to warn about mixed cable?
3) Finally, I am confused about recent legislation regarding bathrooms/kitchens. They are trying to stop amateurs I know, but is there any reason why I can't do something I was capable of doing 4yrs ago

Even with plans for 'Home Inspection Packs' there is no way anyone could prove whether my work was done in 2003 or 2007

Anyway thanks to those who can give me some guidance, I hope i dont start any arguements amoung you all

Thank you

 

[luminaire]

You can do the work yourself as long as you inform the LABC (Local Authority Building Control) at least 48 hours in advance and pay their fee.
They will send someone to inspect the work, on completion and issue a certificate if they see fit to do so.
In stead of having warning stickers, why not sleeve the cables blue, brown as necessary.

 

[GaryMo]

I personally think it's better not to sleeve the red and black to brown and blue respectively as you should by rights have to sleeve the other side then there's nothing stopping somebody else breaking the cable to install another socket and have red and black again.
A simple mixed colours warning sticker by the consumer unit will suffice.

 

[equitum]

Just out of curiousity, do you have any intention of notifying building control ? I'm interested to know how DIY'ers feel about part p and their responsibilities to comply.

Under what basis have you determined that you are "capable" ?

 

[pbar]

Just out of curiousity, do you have any intention of notifying building control ? I'm interested to know how DIY'ers feel about part p and their responsibilities to comply.

Under what basis have you determined that you are "capable" ?

I've done DIY electrics a great deal in the past, and am still doing so, especially with finishing off electrics in some building work we have done. I had never heard of Part P until recently, and only then because someone mentioned it during the building work. Otherwise I would be happily doing electrics years into the future. Most home owners won't have a clue about it I shouldn't think. It's a good thing, for safety. But because you have to pay, it makes it a reluctant thing to make yourself do (i.e. notify), especially if you consider yourself to be competent in what you're doing and do it right, and if so it's money for nothing. I would have thought the amount of DIYer's who do notify is very low.

We determine that we are capable, if we know what we are doing and are certain it is right. I am capable of wiring a plug, fitting a spur, replacing a socket, replacing an MCB, etc. And much more with research/advice. I am not capable of building a space shuttle (yet). It's to do with experience and knowledge. People are aware of their own limitations. At least I hope so.

And on a further note, some qualified electricians do work which you wouldn't consider is any better than a DIYer. A few times I've checked work an electrician has done after he's gone, and changed it to make it right/better. Just like any other guy you might get in to do work in your house, they wanna take the money and be in and out as fast as they can. Not all are like that of course. And just because you may choose a competent scheme person, again, doesn't mean they won't be in and out as quick as they can and leave behind a far from brilliant job.

 

[equitum]

I've done DIY electrics a great deal in the past, and am still doing so, especially with finishing off electrics in some building work we have done. I had never heard of Part P until recently, and only then because someone mentioned it during the building work..

I agree there is little knowledge from the general public about part P. But then again there would be little known about part A or F or whatever. More communication is required by the government to improve this lack of awareness in electrical safety and compliance issues.

We determine that we are capable, if we know what we are doing and are certain it is right. I am capable of wiring a plug, fitting a spur, replacing a socket, replacing an MCB, etc. And much more with research/advice. I am not capable of building a space shuttle (yet). It's to do with experience and knowledge. People are aware of their own limitations. At least I hope so.

To be certain it is right I assume you are designing, erecting, testing and certifying in accordance with, say, BS7671, and therefore posess or have access to calibrated Insulation, continuity, EFLI and RCD test instruments and the OSG or 16th Edition regulations ?

And on a further note, some qualified electricians do work which you wouldn't consider is any better than a DIYer. A few times I've checked work an electrician has done after he's gone, and changed it to make it right/better.

You're most probably correct, in such cases I would report to their registred competent scheme that you suspect the work to be unsatisfactory so that they are held accountable, and you don't become a casualty attempting to right the wrongs !

 

[Taylortwocities]

Ignorance of the law is no defence. Its like driving in your car without the seatbelt on and saying you didnt know it was necessary when plod stops you.

It is a big moan that us sparks have had to go through many hoops and spend substantial sums (every year) to be in the Part P game. The Government who imposed the legislation has done very little to raise the awareness of the law with the people that it most affects - householders.

I hope you will forgive virtual bristling when the part p subject gets discussed.

 

[pbar]

Ignorance of the law is no defence. Its like driving in your car without the seatbelt on and saying you didnt know it was necessary when plod stops you.

No, that's totally different.
Seatbelt law is something you are told about and shown when you learn to drive.
Ask 100 typical people off the street about Part P. The vast majority won't have a clue what it is.
Myself included until very recently.

 

[pbar]

To be certain it is right I assume you are designing, erecting, testing and certifying in accordance with, say, BS7671, and therefore posess or have access to calibrated Insulation, continuity, EFLI and RCD test instruments and the OSG or 16th Edition regulations ?

[ !

No, I'm not and I don't.
You need to do the above in your line of work and the things you do.
As a DIYer doing basic things, I dont.
When I wire a plug, I know whether it's right or wrong.
It's common sense.

 

[equitum]

Again, respect your honesty. I do need those in my line of work as I need to ensure my electrical installations are safe and will remain safe under normal and reasonably forseable conditions.

I would argue that you or anyone else need the same to ensure the safety of themselves and anyone who enters their homes.

If I extend a ring final circuit, your interpretation of "common sense" dictates that as i know I have just installed brand new cable (selected correctly) from point A to B to C to A etc and terminated the correct cables tightly and in the correct positions and in accordance with regulations, routed the cables in safe zones adequately supported and so on.....then I know that it is OK. I've now switched on the MCB, theres been no bangs or flashes, nothings smoking or smells of fish and my appliances work.

How do I know that there is not a potentially fatal problem with the wiring such as,(not exhaustive)

- Defect insulation on the T&E cable
- I've pinched the phase conductor with one of the socket pins when fitting a socket outlet and all metalwork is now live (The MCB has not operated because I dont have earth continuity as a result of a previous condition not being tested)
- The ring is overloaded as there is a loose connection in one of the existing socket outlets, so I dont have continuity in the ring
- the is a potential difference between the cold water feed and the light fitting metalwork because there is no main bonding
- The earth fault loop impedance is 2ohms, therefore my mcb will not operate in 0.4s
- I have a faulty RCD which would not operate within 40ms or maybe not at all

and so on. In other words, can you sleep at night without knowing that you have tested an installation to ensure the elements that you cant see
are safe ?

 

[pbar]

Again, respect your honesty. I do need those in my line of work as I need to ensure my electrical installations are safe and will remain safe under normal and reasonably forseable conditions.

I would argue that you or anyone else need the same to ensure the safety of themselves and anyone who enters their homes.

If I extend a ring final circuit, your interpretation of "common sense" dictates that as i know I have just installed brand new cable (selected correctly) from point A to B to C to A etc and terminated the correct cables tightly and in the correct positions and in accordance with regulations, routed the cables in safe zones adequately supported and so on.....then I know that it is OK. I've now switched on the MCB, theres been no bangs or flashes, nothings smoking or smells of fish and my appliances work.

How do I know that there is not a potentially fatal problem with the wiring such as,(not exhaustive)

- Defect insulation on the T&E cable
- I've pinched the phase conductor with one of the socket pins when fitting a socket outlet and all metalwork is now live (The MCB has not operated because I dont have earth continuity as a result of a previous condition not being tested)
- The ring is overloaded as there is a loose connection in one of the existing socket outlets, so I dont have continuity in the ring
- the is a potential difference between the cold water feed and the light fitting metalwork because there is no main bonding
- The earth fault loop impedance is 2ohms, therefore my mcb will not operate in 0.4s
- I have a faulty RCD which would not operate within 40ms or maybe not at all

and so on. In other words, can you sleep at night without knowing that you have tested an installation to ensure the elements that you cant see
are safe ?

Hi again. Appreciate what you're saying, however, no electrician I've ever had in to do work as done the tests you mention. They simply wire everything up, turn on, yes, everything works, then they go.
I've no doubt that there are guys (like your good self, like others on here), who are very trustworthy, check everything, then check again and are totally reliable. But, in my opinion, most are not. They are more like -connect it up, it works, thanks for the money, see you.
Of course, there are things I won't do. But my point I'm trying to make is that a lot of electrics are in the scope of the DIYer, and it's our own common sense which dictates whether it's right or not what we've done. If it's not in that scope, then one of you guys should be doing it, definitely.

I am inclined to think that a lot of electricians begrudge the whole Part P thing. And because they are forced into it and the expense of it, don't like people getting away with doing stuff that costs them a fortune for the privilege of being allowed to do it.
And I can understand that.

 

[equitum]

Again, you are most probably right ! Before I became a self employed I admit to doing DIY electrics (pre part P) as I had qualifications in electronics and electrical theory and thought I knew what I was doing. And I admit that other than basic tests with a multimeter I didn't fully test my installations. I guess that becoming registered with NICEIC and undertaking formal domestic installtion training it has opened by eyes to the potential pitfalls of DIY.

I do ALWAYS test and certify any work I do and always ensure it is compliant with BS7671. There are many qualified electricians who berate any person who undertakes electrical work with merely a DISQ qualification (such as myself) who has not served x years apprenticeship and without y years of experience, and there are just as many qualified sparks with said apprenticeships and experience who do not test or certify their work and who have not kept up to date with legislations and regulations !

 

[barclay55]

Am I correct in stating the only reason dandt's proposed work is notifiable is because it is extending a kitchen ring main?

In any other room he would be perfectly correct to just go ahead without notification?

Incidentally I think he is correct to say that there is an awful lot of electrical work being done today with old coloured cable that strangely was done a few years ago? The Prescott Part P Paradox?

I do have every sympathy for the knowledgable and confident DIYer, who could do this work as well in the kitchen as for any other room. But we have all types of DIYers: novices, bodgers, ok but know their limits, and excellent but non-qualified. Unfortunately the blunderbuss of the regulations applies equally to all.

It used to be that just a bathroom was considered a 'special' area inside the house. Now like a creeping ivy we have 'special' regulations for downstairs sockets, kitchens, showers and arguably toilets too?

So does that progression mean by say 2020:
no DIY electrics full STOP??

 

[GaryMo]

So does that progression mean by say 2020:
no DIY electrics full STOP??

I certainly hope so!
It's one thing installing a socket or a lighting point and it working but it's something completely different if that new addition doesn't disconnect from supply within the allowed time under fault conditions.
How can a DIY'er be confident of this unless he/she has test equipment, can understand the results and assess whether the installation is safe or unsafe?

Would an average DIY'er play with gas?

 

[electronicsuk]

You have cable with the old core colours, and if you feel you are capable of the work then there's nothing we can do to stop you, and little chance anyone will ever find out. But you didn't hear me say that, and I didn't advise it, and I know I will get shot down from all sides for even mentioning it.