Do I have 3 phase in my 1930s built house?

[SimonH2]

I think it would come under Section 2 para 3 "make any significant change to ... electrical equipment at the premises" ... "or if you propose to do anything else that could affect our network"
AIUI, when the initial connection is requested, it will be stated what sort of loads are proposed to be connected - and I suspect that most developers will just tick (or accept the default) for "normal domestic loads". It's tricky, but I suspect the electricity act probably makes you a party to the original contract even if you know nothing about what was agreed - in my case, there have been multiple owners since the house was built and the electricity connected, and in any case I'm sure that the expectations on the electricity supply in the 1940s would have been a bit different to today's

In practical terms, you can do what you want as long as no-one is affected and complains - or you do something "big enough" to show up on their monitoring But as already stated, if neighbours start complaining about dimming lights etc, they'll start looking for the culprit.

EDIT: What you could connect and without causing issues will vary. If you are down the end of a long overhead line with just a few users on it then you can easily make the lights dim. If you're next door to the substation with modern (larger) cabling then you could apply bigger loads without causing issues. In practical terms, the NTCs cannot state what is or isn't OK - the variables are too many.

 

[JohnW2]

... "or if you propose to do anything else that could affect our network"
EDIT: What you could connect and without causing issues will vary. If you are down the end of a long overhead line with just a few users on it then you can easily make the lights dim. If you're next door to the substation with modern (larger) cabling then you could apply bigger loads without causing issues. In practical terms, the NTCs cannot state what is or isn't OK - the variables are too many.

Exactly - and, as I just wrote, I don't think that one (or DNOs, or Courts) could reasonably expect Joe Public to have a clue as to whether any particular load "could affect the network".

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Copied from the application form for a new domestic supply where motors and welders are described as "disturbing loads".

https://www.westernpower.co.uk/Connections/New-Connections/Apply.aspx

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But are the courts likely to send the DNO away with a flea in their ear, telling them that no, there is nothing they can do about one of their customers "affecting" the network and causing problems to other customers, because the troublesome one can't be expected to know whether any particular load would be problematic?

The information is out there for people to look at, and it is not, IMO, an unfair term/condition. And there's the principle that ignorance is no defence.

Talking of courts is misleading anyway - I'm as sure as I can be that if someone's load(s) were causing problems, the DNO would pay a visit and request that the person desist, not send a man with a writ, and that any court involvement would arise only if the miscreant refused to stop, by which time he could no longer claim he didn't know.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Copied from the application form for a new domestic supply where motors and welders are described as "disturbing loads"....

All very well, but not something anybody moving into a house with an existing supply would ever see.

 

[JohnW2]

Copied from the application form for a new domestic supply where motors and welders are described as "disturbing loads".....

Interesting - but I very much doubt that anyone who has acquired an existing supply will ever have seen, let alone answered, any such questions.

And I wonder ... What does "Input Voltage" mean for a welder, and how on earth is anyone expected to give figures for "number of (motor) starts per hour" or "Number of welds per minute"? The answers to such questions have surely always got to be "it depends"!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Interesting - but I very much doubt that anyone who has acquired an existing supply will ever have seen, let alone answered, any such questions.

All very well, but not something anybody moving into a house with an existing supply would ever see.

 

[JohnW2]

I think the point is that the question as to whether there is a requirement to seek DNO permission to use potentially 'disturbing' equipment (which requirement probably does, strictly speaking, exist) is essentially irrelevant or, at least, moot.

The DNO will only take any interest/action if any equipment connected to their network appears to be 'disturbing' the network, and that remains true even if they had previously been asked for, and granted, permission. If it transpires that the equipment is disturbing their network (and, again, even if they had previously granted permission for its use), then they will presumably initially request that use of the equipment ceases and, if that request is not heeded, would theoretically be within their rights to disconnect the supply.

I therefore see no practical difference between the situations in which permission to use the equipment had, and had not, been previously sought.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Does one buy a house and take over the contract for the electricity supply to it without doing any checks on what is or isn't permitted / possible ?

Maybe the solictors involved are lax in not pointing out the pre-existing conditions in the electric supply contract

 

[EFLImpudence]

Surely, this is similar to a lot of laws which are never actually enforced or even monitored but when something goes wrong someone can say you have not complied and are at fault.

 

[JohnW2]

Surely, this is similar to a lot of laws which are never actually enforced or even monitored but when something goes wrong someone can say you have not complied and are at fault.

In a sense but, as I've recently written, I don't think that, in this case, it makes the slightest practical difference....

1.... If one uses welders/motors/whatever without anyone ever having sought permission for their use, and if use of that equipment does not result in the DNO receiving any complaints about 'disturbances to the network', then no-one (particularly not the DNO) will even know that the equipment is being used - so no issue/problem.

2...If, on the other hand, the DNO receives complaints about 'disturbances to the network' and the cause of those disturbances is traced to use of one's equipment, then the DNO will presumably say (under threat of disconnection) that the equipment should not continue to be used - and would say that even if they had previously been asked for (and had granted) permission for its use (as well as if they had not been asked for permission).

Hence, as above, I see no no difference consequent upon whether or not permission was sought.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Were I in position #2, and I had asked and been granted permission, then I would start to argue that if they had told me it was OK, and as a consequence I had then gone and splashed out on my particle accelerator and aluminium smelter, it was down to the DNO to reinforce their network, particularly if my loads hadn't changed but others had.

If they don't know about your "abnormal" load, and therefore assume that a particular local LV network has remaining capacity of X, and then find that it was only Y because of you, and they've just gone and sold X, they will rightly look to you for a remedy.

If, OTOH, they knew and agreed with you reducing the spare capacity to Y (after all, they would have been getting paid for your use of (X-Y)), then if they find they need to be able to sell X to someone else the words other, boot and foot come to mind.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, that implies the DNO don't know what they are doing and if the situation had arisen before, they may now be too conservative in their decisions and refusing permission for things that would not cause a problem.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, that implies the DNO don't know what they are doing and if the situation had arisen before, they may now be too conservative in their decisions and refusing permission for things that would not cause a problem.

Possibly - that is why I keep asking whether anyone knows how DNOs usually respond to requests (when they receive them) for permission to use fairly modest loads (like small welders or motor-driven equipment).

The situations we are discussing are obviously different from those in which someone wants to install equipment which could result in a significant increase in the (with across-premises and across-time diversity) average demand on the local network (i.e. loads which might be relevant in terms of the 'capacity' of that local network). However, we are not really talking about that but, rather, of loads which will not significantly affect that average demand, hence do not require significantly more 'capacity', but which may result in transiently high currents (e.g. at start-up) which could have an adverse effect on that local network.

Kind Regards, John

 

[aesmith]

Copied from the application form for a new domestic supply where motors and welders are described as "disturbing loads".

SSEPD is very similar, although it refers to these are "Special Loads". Neither contain a continuing obligation to inform them of changes after the connection is made. As well as BAS's point that a new owner or tenant isn't informed of the inventory declared when the property was first connected.

Anyway the reason I butted in was because I thought BAS implied he'd actually read something explicit in his own agreement. I'm sure I've seen something somewhere referring to a need to notify (if not necessarily ask permission) fixed appliances over a certain kVA rating. I can't remember either the context or the figure, 3kVA rings a bell and would make some sort of sense.