Dodgy Downlights: Best way to replace?

[PinkFloyd]

In the process of refitting our bathroom and decided to replace the existing downlights as they're looking tired. There are three 240v units, with a fourth 240v unit above the current shower that also has a 12v fan unit enclosed. I got a bit of a shock (pardon the pun) when inspecting the 'wiring' in the loft. I've put some pictures below:

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• PinkFloyd
• 2 May 2014
• 1

This second picture shows in detail what was underneath the blue tape.

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• PinkFloyd
• 2 May 2014
• 1

So it certainly doesn't look at all good, and most probably does not conform to any regulations. At the moment the main feed from the switch comes into the 'choc block' and the lights are daisy chained from that. To that end I've decided to replace the lot. However I'm confused on the best way forward?

Is it best to go for low voltage? I'm assuming I'll need the correct rated unit with a fan to use above the new bath that will have an overhead shower? With regard to the low voltage units is it better to have one transformer per unit, or one transformer rated to provide enough power for the four units?

I'm happy working with electricity as I do so at work often (HV and LV) however I'm not sure about domestic regs (I'm in Scotland) so if someone is able to advise on the best way forward in terms of units to purchase, and what wiring configuration to use I'd really appreciate it.

 

[ekmdgrf]

It's a surprisingly common (although it wouldn't know a regulation one got up and bit it on the arse) method. Probably the easiest way is to reterminate it in a Hager junction box. I'd also be inclined to clip the cables in place so they look neat and tidy. If you're really anal like me, you can use a rule to equally space the cable clips and then it looks like it was installed by an olde skool BT engineer.

 

[PinkFloyd]

It's a surprisingly common (although it wouldn't know a regulation one got up and bit it on the a**e) method. Probably the easiest way is to reterminate it in a Hager junction box. I'd also be inclined to clip the cables in place so they look neat and tidy. If you're really anal like me, you can use a rule to equally space the cable clips and then it looks like it was installed by an olde skool BT engineer.

Cheers for the reply.

My thoughts are to go with low voltage units and use a junction box to supply a feed to individual transformers (one for each Low voltage unit) However not sure if this complies with regs or not?

 

[PinkFloyd]

Well I've had another look up in the loft this afternoon and have disconnected three of the downlights and left just the one. Basically all I have now is a single live and neutral feed coming up from a one-way switch. I'm assuming this was to supply the original pendent type lamp that was in the bathroom before the previous owners installed the downlights.

What's the best way of moving forward with this now?

 

[EFLImpudence]

My thoughts are to go with low voltage units and use a junction box to supply a feed to individual transformers (one for each Low voltage unit) However not sure if this complies with regs or not?

You don't need transformers for low voltage lights.
There's one for winston (forum joke - I don't mean winston).

I'm happy working with electricity as I do so at work often (HV and LV)

I bet you don't otherwise you would know.

Extra-low voltage - <50VAC
Low voltage - 50 to 1000VAC
High voltage - >1000VAC

 

[PinkFloyd]

My thoughts are to go with low voltage units and use a junction box to supply a feed to individual transformers (one for each Low voltage unit) However not sure if this complies with regs or not?

You don't need transformers for low voltage lights.
There's one for winston (forum joke - I don't mean winston).

I'm happy working with electricity as I do so at work often (HV and LV)

I bet you don't otherwise you would know.

Extra-low voltage - <50VAC
Low voltage - 50 to 1000VAC
High voltage - >1000VAC

Not quite sure what you're getting at here?

I was referring to 12v downlights when talking about low voltage. I doubt they'd like a 240v supply feed to them without a transformer in place......

The problem here is that you're trying to be smart, rather than helpful. Had you actually read my posts you'd have understood exactly why I was making reference to 'low voltage' downlights as that's how they're described and sold to people to help differentiate between the two types available 12v and 240v.

Yes, strictly speaking it doesn't follow with the rules you've stated above but we all know what I mean.

I don't deal with domestic wiring and never have hence why I'm asking what the regulations are. It's very easy to get something working, but it's a lot hard to do so it meets regulations. I just want to do it the right way.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Extra-low voltage - <50VAC
Low voltage - 50 to 1000VAC
High voltage - >1000VAC

Not quite sure what you're getting at here?

Usage of the correct terminology.

I was referring to 12v downlights when talking about low voltage.

Then you were incorrect.

I doubt they'd like a 240v supply feed to them without a transformer in place......

Low voltage lamps would not mind.

The problem here is that you're trying to be smart rather than helpful.,

No, correct.

Had you actually read my posts you'd have understood exactly why I was making reference to 'low voltage' downlights as that's how they're described and sold to people to help differentiate between the two types available 12v and 240v.

However, it is incorrect.

Yes, strictly speaking it doesn't follow with the rules you've stated above but we all know what I mean.

Only because everyone correctly assumed you were wrong.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Yes, strictly speaking it doesn't follow with the rules you've stated above but we all know what I mean.

But what you mean you don't know! There is a difference between, ELV, LV and HV, in your post you indicated that you have worked with LV and HV, but you don't know the definition of them.

I don't deal with domestic wiring and never have hence why I'm asking what the regulations are. It's very easy to get something working, but it's a lot

So what do you deal with at work?

Sorry not a helpful post and not intending to be smart, just like to know what you competency levles are.

 

[PinkFloyd]

I give up.

Perhaps if people took the time to read the posts I'd made, didn't pick holes in them, and answered the simple questions I asked the thread would be a whole lot more productive, and pleasant to read.

Bottom line is that there appears to be two different types of downlights available for domestic use with respect to voltage 12v and 240v. Online retailers list the 12v ones a 'low voltage downlights' Yes the terminology may not be correct, but I'm sure every domestic spark I could call upon would know exactly what I mean when I say 'low voltage downlights'

Enjoy your evening. Hopefully you won't find anyone else whose 'terminology' doesn't quite fit your exacting standards to pick on......

I'll seek advice elsewhere.

 

[sparkwright]

Before you go, Pink Floyd, I have to say in your defence that, down my way at least, everyone in the trade does wrongly call 12 v downlights low voltage downlights.

And very often they are described as such in some shops and wholesalers.

Back to your job, it would be sensible to have 240 v GU10 fittings, so you can have the option of LED lamps.

 

[GaryGarden]

I don't deal with domestic wiring and never have hence why I'm asking what the regulations are.

The regs are the regs, 7671 applies to ELV & LV the same whether it's domestic, commercial or industrial!

 

[flyingsparks]

Before you go, Pink Floyd, I have to say in your defence that, down my way at least, everyone in the trade does wrongly call 12 v downlights low voltage downlights.

And very often they are described as such in some shops and wholesalers.

Back to your job, it would be sensible to have 240 v GU10 fittings, so you can have the option of LED lamps.

Thanks Sparkwright. I was about to give a useful post until I read yours and saw you said basically what I was going to say. Unfortunately there are always a few people here who try and be a smart arse. BAS has retired from the Electrics UK forum, and now others are trying to take his place.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Oh I'm terribly, terribly sorry.

Yes, thank you sparkwright, jolly decent of you to point out that half the trade don't know either.



Let's all use the wrong terms for everything and end up in a right mess.

 

[sparkwright]

No problem.

 

[winston1]

To answer a few unanswered questions. If you want to keep halogen lights, rather than LED, 12 volt types give a better colour rendition and have a longer life. You do need a transformer though, or more common these days a switch mode power supply. You only need one however, no point in having a separate one for each light.

If you want to go LED best to use 240 volt types. There is no advantage to 12 volt ones and you will have to get a special LED driver.