education and quacilifations

I had a feeling it would come to that. JohnW2, your comments resonate somewhat with my feelings on the matter.
I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone.
I recently moved into a new house. I went to my local agent for household insurance ... How do you know my electrical installation is safe?, I said. We don't need to know that, she replied. this isnt the only property Ive ever insured. Ive never been asked for any sort of certification of the electrical installation.
Until the insurance companies get interested in it, what really is the purpose of having these tests?
There is a bit of a sting in the tail of this. Although, as you say. most insurers don't require evidence of electrical saftey when you take out insurance, if you were to make a claim for an electrically-related fire, they probably would suddenly get interested. Somewhere deep in the small print of the policy you may well find a requirement that you maintain the electrical installation in a safe state, or something like that, and they might try to wriggle out of a claim on the basis that you hadn't complied with that.
the very fact that the actuaries disregard the PIR's or EICR's surely means that they are not worth the printer they're papered on? (or is this taking free market economics theory too far)
Many, probably most EICRs are probably very good, and have been undertaken by competent, knowledgeable and experienced people. The problem is that at least some aren't, and Joe Public really has no way of know whether he's got a good or a bad one. Some sort of registration (with regular reassessment) of those entitled to issue EICRs (a bit like registration of self-certifying electricians), maybe with some 'audit' of EICRs they undertake, would go at least some way to help.

Kind Regards, John
 
Correct. There's theoretically nothing to prevent you carrying out an EICR having never lifted a screwdriver before.
I feared so - and no matter what I might feel about my own knowledge and 'competence', I really don't think that's acceptable.

As you've implied, in most walks of life, becoming an 'inspector' is something which happens after at least a good few years of experience doing hands-on work - not something one rushes off and starts doing the moment one has some paper 'qualification' in one's hand.

Kind Regards, John
Edit: typo corrected
 
AFAIK, even scheme members issuing EICRs on scheme branded paperwork are only audited on their EICs and not their EICRs.
 
You can take it as read that if the insurance companies are not worried then it is not a problem.
Some insurance companies are interested, for example those insuring thatched buidings and other "special risk" properties. A fully documented inspection report is a requirement of one company.

While my insurers will accept my DIY renovation they will require at some time in the near future verification of my test results by an independent electrician who they consider as suitable.

For the run of the mill property the risk from electrical faults in fixed wiring appears to be considered as being small in comparison to the risks from other faults, errors and stupidity by the occupants.
 
Don't forget that you are liable in law for any hurt that you do to another. A quick look at the UK papers will show an increasing tendency for courts to send plumbers, builders etc to jail where there work has resulted in injury. The "proper" electrician will have exercised, and be able to prove, all reasonable care and all due diligence. I guess that hidden in the fine print of most insurance policies are clauses about illegal work and certainly many require notification if building works of any kind are undertaken in the property. In other words, you're insured when you pay the premium and not if it goes wrong.
If you are living in Orkney then I can see your problem and can only suggest contacting the educational department of the IEE. There may be colleges who do correspondence type courses with summer schools which will get you started. Best of luck.
 
There's an interesting chapter in Paul Cook's Commentary... on the history of the Wiring Regulations. It was insurance companies who first published rules for electrical installations.
 
For the run of the mill property the risk from electrical faults in fixed wiring appears to be considered as being small in comparison to the risks from other faults, errors and stupidity by the occupants.
Very possibly. Actuaries obviously work almost entirely on the basis of statsitics relating to claims. They may well have discovered, as you say, that, in terms of the big picture, electrical faults in fixed wiring are relatively rare causes of fires ... and/or they may have discovered that such fires are generally not due to causes which would have been picked up in even a good EICR.

However, as I an others have said, although insurance companies are usually happy to take your money and issue a policy (for a 'standard property) without an EICR or any questions about the electrics, that by no means indicates that things will go so smoothly if one tries to make a claim for an electrically-related fire, if they can successfully argue that there was anything iffy (which, in their minds, may include DIY work) in the history of the elctrical installation.

Kind Regards, John
 
There's an interesting chapter in Paul Cook's Commentary... on the history of the Wiring Regulations. It was insurance companies who first published rules for electrical installations.
Indeed. Financial interest had a lot to do with many things like this - don't forget, for example, that it was insurance companies who started the first fire-fighting services (albeit, initially, they would only attend fires in properties they had insured!). There were also the institutions who first identified the relationship between many things (e.g. untreated high blood pressure and obesity) and reduced life expectancy.

Kind Regards, John
 
AFAIK, even scheme members issuing EICRs on scheme branded paperwork are only audited on their EICs and not their EICRs.

The NICEIC certainly do look at EICRs at the AC I work for. Normally the previous six months or so of them are dug out and stacked on the middle of the table in front of him and he looks through a couple picked at random from the stack
 
Yes of course I hadnt considered the situation where the loss adjuster actually gets involved. Of course there will be a clause ensuring that you do actually need a paper trail of certification when you are asked for it. Im so certain there is that I shant bother to read the smmall print.

Having said that, true anecdote: I know my insurance agent personally, and we got into a discussion about the electric certs: coincidentally (and enttirely true) just after I insured, she had a fire in a partition wall that was caused by a loose terminal screw in a socket. luckily both her and her husband were home and together they rapidly extinguished the fire (had they not been home this could have been a disaster)
The insurance policy paid out for the resulting redecoration without any questions, she has since paid the next premium, still no questions. perhaps the claim was sufficiently small so as to not trigger investigation, but we both thought that the underwriter would ask for some electrical upgrading or certification.
 
I do think it is insurance which controls who can and who can't do work on an installation. Yet seems relatively easy to get insurance I refused to do some work in a school as I had no insurance and it would just cost too much for a one off job. However the guy was able to include me on his policy without having to see any of my qualifications and that does raise the question as to who insurance companies will issue both public liability and Professional Indemnity Insurance to?

I have never tried to claim from either type and I wonder how easy? So if I say a building is safe and I miss noting an earth wire is missing how easy would it be to claim from either me direct or my insurance?

It is so easy for a socket to be behind furniture during an inspection and later be exposed. Or for some one to fiddle with after the inspection. Now the inspection form is only valid when presented together with a schedule of test results so if I miss a socket then it should be easy to show as it would be missing from the list of results. Or would it?

We only show results for a circuit not every socket found on that circuit and unless given a schedule listing all sockets before starting clearly no electrician could be held responsible for something he was unaware existed.

So to claim one would need to show there was something very wrong with the inspection. However if it's criminal activity then the insurance would not cover. So what would it cover?

When one looks at some of the cases it's normally a host of items not just one. The guy being killed because the electrician who fitted the central heating boiler put a lose wire which he thought was a earth bonding wire onto the earth bond spade terminal but it was in fact an unused wire from normally closed part of a switch resulted in the pipework becoming live when the boiler was off. Since he only tested with everything switched on he did not find his error.

Had that been all likely he would have got away with it, but he was called back because some one got a shock. And the court said having been alerted that there was an error he should have done more tests.

It was found there was no earth connected to the socket the boiler was plugged into, which coupled with the error, resulted in the death. So here there was documented evidence that he (the electrician) had made a mistake. However it's rare to have something to prove who made the error. Specially with a EICR or even simple PAT testing.

Clearly with testing nothing should be wrong in the first place and where it is 90% of the time it is visible. Other than a visible problem it would be hard to prove for example that an earth bond bolt was lose at time of testing and it should have been found.

Something like a final ring with open circuit because of a removed lenght of cable OK might be able to prove. But miss a figure of 8 installation it would be hard to show it was missed because of negligence or more to the point injury or damage was the result.

When my son had new paperwork and as a result he made an error. It was not a problem with the house, but just wrong figures in the spaces provided which resulted on paper work. The house would fail as the loop impedance was too high. Whole block of houses before he noted error, and he corrected on all the new ones. He had intended to tell his boss, but forgot until months latter. This paperwork went to his employer, from them to the scheme provider, and from them to the LABC, all who failed to highlight the error. So if there had really been an error with the house, and some one injured, who would take the blame? Four people at least should have flagged up the error, likely three insurance companies, and likely the courts would have to proportion the blame.

I watch some of the builders from hell TV stuff. Never have I seen the LACB taken to task for not highlighting earlier the errors made. To my mind we pay the LABC a lot of money but it would seem they do very little for that money. Social services are picked up many times for errors in inspecting and testing but not LABC why?

What we need is a licence. And a points system like with driving licence and over set amount of points and one can't trade. Part P is nothing. My son was employed by a Part P registered firm and did the inspection and testing for six sites because he had a C&G2391 but never was he inspected to see if he was doing it right. I am sure he did it right except for paperwork slip up. But 9 months with that firm and never tested. Same with many other firms he worked for. OK sole traders are inspected but large firms seem to get away with it.
 
AFAIK, even scheme members issuing EICRs on scheme branded paperwork are only audited on their EICs and not their EICRs.
The NICEIC certainly do look at EICRs at the AC I work for. Normally the previous six months or so of them are dug out and stacked on the middle of the table in front of him and he looks through a couple picked at random from the stack
Yes, but that's far from being an effective audit. On the contrary, some of the worst people we would like to 'weed out' are those who produce impeccable EICRs (the bits of paper), but the content of which don't bear a proper relationship to what they would say if the I&T had been undertaken by a competent and conscientious person. In the very worst cases,of course, the contents of the EICR may be nothing more than fiction.

Kind Regards, John
 
If you want to be able to carry out EICRs, you need a minimum of 7 years experience working with a whole spectrum of electrical installations day in, day out whilst also gaining the paperwork to back up the practical experience.

I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life. Really seven years!!! That is more that it takes to qualify as a doctor or dentist, are you really saying that it requires more experience and learning to qualify as an electrician than a doctor or dentist?
 
I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life. Really seven years!!! That is more that it takes to qualify as a doctor or dentist, are you really saying that it requires more experience and learning to qualify as an electrician than a doctor or dentist?
I'm not sure that's a very good analogy, at least in the case of doctors. Seven years after starting training, a doctor on a 'standard' 6-year course would just be nearing the end of their first year of compulsory supervised practice (during which year they are only 'provisionally registered', and are not allowed to practice without supervision) - and before they can work 'alone'/autonomously, they have to undergo several further years of supervised practice. I certainly would not want to put my life/health in the hands of someone at that 7-year point, working alone. Indeed, it's probably closer to 7 years post-qualification (i.e. 13 years from the start of training) before doctors really start becoming experienced enough to safely work totally autonomously.

Kind Regards, John
 
I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life. Really seven years!!! That is more that it takes to qualify as a doctor or dentist, are you really saying that it requires more experience and learning to qualify as an electrician than a doctor or dentist?

I think you have misunderstood. RF said 7 years experience. College does not teach you everything you need to know.
Minimum 3 years electrical academic education then more experience.
I would not say a doctor is experienced after 7 years total of training and experience so the ratio would be greater - probably 10, 12 or even 15 years ?
Even then we/they are still learning everyday. Just like different patients complaints, installations vary between domestics, commercial or industrial.
And by the time an installation might be getting an inspection it will not be the same as any other install.

EDIT: I'm sure John's post wasn't there when I started typing :?: :oops:
 

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