education and quacilifations

[jabuzzard]

I think you have misunderstood. RF said 7 years experience. College does not teach you everything you need to know.
Minimum 3 years electrical academic education then more experience.

That is still far to long. It only takes three years to get a degree at University for heavens sake and the material covered is far more complex and wider.

I have all the materials at home to assist me in my DIY and there is no way on earth that it would take me three years to learn all that. Three months full time would be way more than enough.

Not sure how it takes four years to get the practical experience either. Maybe it depends on how quick the individual can pick things up, but I find the suggestion that it would take me seven years to qualify as an electrician utterly ridiculous.

I would not say a doctor is experienced after 7 years total of training and experience so the ratio would be greater - probably 10, 12 or even 15 years ?
Even then we/they are still learning everyday. Just like different patients complaints, installations vary between domestics, commercial or industrial.
And by the time an installation might be getting an inspection it will not be the same as any other install.

EDIT: I'm sure John's post wasn't there when I started typing

Sure we all continue to learn because things change and new techniques and practices have to be mastered. However seven years for an electrician is just being silly. A dentist is done in five years of degree and one year post qualification. This is less than is being alleged for an electrician.

 

[JohnW2]

EDIT: I'm sure John's post wasn't there when I started typing

I suppose that depends upon how fast you type - but 34 minutes for that fairly brief post would not win you any secretarial medals Whatever, I'm glad to see that we wrote virtually the same (albeit, as expected, mine was somewhat less succinct ).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ricicle]

To JAB:-
So you are happy to state that an electrician knows everything before seven years has elapsed ?

 

[ericmark]

Experience is all I can go on. Having been an electrician for around 30 years I went back into university to gain my degree in electrical and electronic engineering.

The maths is really tough and I will be the first to admit I was sadly lacking when it came to for example using two supplies. It was a steep learning curve. However regulation wise even the University lecturers seemed somewhat lacking. It would seem the standard line on the bottom of each assignment asked about health and safety.

However I had missed this and thought I was being asked what was wrong with what we were doing. So very quickly I confirmed the PLC units we were using "Alan Bradley" were designed to be fitted in an enclosure and did not comply with the IP rating required to use them as free standing units.

I included this with both references to manufacturers data and BS7671:2008 to support my statement that as used by the University the PLC's could only be used where instructed personnel were present and to for example use the as a demonstration for school children would not be permitted within the current regulations.

Oh did I cause a problem. Seems the lecturers had missed this and the University health and safety department were not amused. First was to try and blame me. Once they realised I was not a 19 year old but 60 years old with a lot of experience they realised they had a big problem.

I pointed out as far as the electricity at work regulations were concerned I was a competent person so I had personally not broken any regulations. It was only when they allowed school children to view what was done in University that there was really a problem. My class had two C&G2391 certificate holders. (Neither was the lecturer)

I tell this story as clearly even at level 5 the people doing the training can make huge mistakes in assessing what is permitted even after many years in academia. So clearly until some one starts to actually work in the industry one is likely to make errors with what standards are required.

Even when one is a practising electrician for 40 years as in my case one still finds one has misread the odd regulation. I was corrected on my interruption of 433.2.1 only a week ago.

Even the authorities are changing their ideas with the HSE saying how we are going OTT with PAT testing and I have to admit they do have a point.

How many year? Well although after 40 still making errors my son at 10 years into the trade made very few and I would consider at that point we talked about items on par with each other no longer with me as the peer figure.

At 4 years though he was still on a steep learning curve. Each person will of course reach that point at a different point in their training. But I fail to see how anyone could reach a point where they could work as a sole trader in under 3 years. Many will require many more years.

 

[JohnW2]

...I find the suggestion that it would take me seven years to qualify as an electrician utterly ridiculous.

As ricicle has said, no-one is suggesting that. With a few exceptions (in the case of highly 'vocational', rather than academic, trainings), in most walks of life, newly-'qualified' people are next-to-useless. The question is how much post-qualification experience is necessary before a person becomes a really 'able' member of the trade or profession concerned. As I've said, for doctors I'd say that is at least 6 or 7 years (post-qualification) - it takes a minimum of 3 or 4 years, often appreciably more, to even get the higher qualifications one needs in order to practice autonomously.

Kind Regards, John

 

[jabuzzard]

...I find the suggestion that it would take me seven years to qualify as an electrician utterly ridiculous.

As ricicle has said, no-one is suggesting that. With a few exceptions (in the case of highly 'vocational', rather than academic, trainings), in most walks of life, newly-'qualified' people are next-to-useless. The question is how much post-qualification experience is necessary before a person becomes a really 'able' member of the trade or profession concerned. As I've said, for doctors I'd say that is at least 6 or 7 years (post-qualification) - it takes a minimum of 3 or 4 years, often appreciably more, to even get the higher qualifications one needs in order to practice autonomously.

Kind Regards, John

Except the point is there was a claim of three years for the "academic" side of an electrician. There is more material in a two year A level Physics, Chemistry or Maths than needed for an electrician and mostly you do three of those in two years.

Also as I pointed out it is six years period for a dentist to practice autonomously, or seven if they are going to do hospital based work. To suggest that it is necessary for the same length of time for an electrician is having a laugh.

I am just a DIY'er but having all the materials on hand I would be gutted if I could not pass the exams with a month of revision. On the practical side I have never done MICC or SWA, neither of which is going to take months to learn, and I have never done an RCD test because as a DIY'er I have never been able to justify the expense but that is couple of hours tops. I do have an insulation tester however. Month tops to get all the practical skills up to scratch I reckon.

Maybe it helps I have a degree in physics and I am practically, but seven years is really having a laugh in my opinion.

 

[securespark]

There's an interesting chapter in Paul Cook's Commentary... on the history of the Wiring Regulations. It was insurance companies who first published rules for electrical installations.

QUOTE:

Requirements for safe wiring date back to 1876 when Mr Musgrave Heaphy, an engineer with the Phoenix Assurance Company, started investigating the possible fire risks from the installations of electrical systems. In June 1882, the Society of Telegraph Engineers and Electricians, which later became the Institution of Electrical Engineers, published the Rules and Regulations for the Prevention of Fire Risks arising from Electric Lighting. This first edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations was a simple four-page document, but has now become the technical standard for all installers carrying out electrical installation work. In 1991 it became British Standard 7671: Requirements for Electrical Installations

From: http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=890667#890667#ixzz2Cod1kCdU

From my thread on How BGB began:

With reference to another thread, I thought I'd post a copy of the following:

SOCIETY OF TELEGRAPH ENGINEERS AND OF ELECTRICIANS

of 4, The Sanctuary, Westminster.

Rules and regulations for the prevention of fire risks arising from electric lighting, recommended by the Council in accordance with the Report of the Committee appointed by them on May 11, 1882, to consider the subject.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g9/securespark/1stEdI.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g9/securespark/1stEdII.jpg[/QUOTE]

 

[JohnW2]

Also as I pointed out it is six years period for a dentist to practice autonomously, or seven if they are going to do hospital based work. To suggest that it is necessary for the same length of time for an electrician is having a laugh.

You seem to have lost track of what is being discussed. It's not how much training (or experience) is required for someone to become 'an electrician' and to start working 'as an electrician'. As is often mentioned here, there even appear to be '5-day' routes for achieving that! The discussion is about the amount of experience which is desirable for someone undertaking EICRs. In most walks of life, becoming an 'inspector' is something which doesn't happen until one has gained hand-on experience of working in a field for several years (post-trining). It's not primarily to do with academic knowledge or skills (which are expected to be there), but to having had lots of experience and therefore having (almost!) 'seen it all'. It took my father best part of 20 years to get to being an aeronautical engineering 'inspector'.

You seem to like the medical/dental analogies, and I suppose the nearest equivalent (to an 'inspector/inspection) is when one of those professionals undertakes an assessment of a patient, for example in relation to insurance proposals, insurance claims, litigation, benefits awards etc. In all of those cases, the insurance company, lawyers or govenment agencies/depts expect the assessor/'inspector' to be a doctor/dentist with many years of post-qualification experience - again, it's a question of their having seen 'almost everything' over a period of years of practice. One legislated situation is in relation to Cremation Certificates - the 'second doctor' (in addition to the one issuing the Death Certificate) required to assess the case (including 'inspecting' the body) and complete the certificate (a fairly detailed thing, a bit like an EICR!) has to have been fully registered for at least 5 years - which usually means at least 12 years (6+1+5) after starting training. It's also perhaps worth noting that all sub-Consultant hospital doctor posts (and, these days, the first few years for someone working towards being a GP) are categorised as 'training posts' - and people in such posts would not normally be regarded as sufficiently experienced to undertake 'inspecting' roles.

I am just a DIY'er but having all the materials on hand I would be gutted if I could not pass the exams with a month of revision. ...

Same here, and I probably have a'working level' of most of the necessary skills (although I'm sure that they would improve a lot if I were utilising them full time). However, as above, what I don't have is years of experience of seeing different electrical installations every day, and seeing a vast range of all the wierd, wonderful, confusing and crazy things that one sometimes encounters. Even today, without any electrical qualifications, I could 'do an EICR' in a mechanistic sense, but I'm sure that I would sometimes miss, or misinterpret, things, possibly of importance to the person comissioning the inspection, because of my lack of wide experience of 'what is out there'.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[securespark]

If you want to be able to carry out EICRs, you need a minimum of 7 years experience working with a whole spectrum of electrical installations day in, day out whilst also gaining the paperwork to back up the practical experience.

I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life. Really seven years!!! That is more that it takes to qualify as a doctor or dentist, are you really saying that it requires more experience and learning to qualify as an electrician than a doctor or dentist?

It might only take a dentist 6 years to be able to practice on his own, but he still has only just completed training and has no experience behind him/ her.

Personally, I am of the opinion you NEVER stop learning: and anyone who thinks they know it all are the most dangerous and are heading for a fall.

 

[JohnW2]

It might only take a dentist 6 years to be able to practice on his own, but he still has only just completed training and has no experience behind him/ her.

He's been quite clever to single out dentists since, unlike doctors, they do have a very 'vocational' training, and therefore do have a fair bit of experience by the time they qualify. The last three years of their training consists predominantly of 'doing denistry'(under supervision!) - initially on 'phantom heads' (i.e. models with teeth) but, for most of that period, on real patients. However, as you go on to say ....

Personally, I am of the opinion you NEVER stop learning: and anyone who thinks they know it all are the most dangerous and are heading for a fall.

.. which is obviously true in all walks of life. As I've just written, I do agree that a good few years post-qualification experience are desirable for anyone in any 'inspecting role' (and that includes EICRs). A newly-qualified electrician should know 'how to do an EICR', just as | believe I do, without even having any qualifications - but that doesn't mean that an EICR they (or I !) undertake is going to be as sure to pick up everything as one done by someone with more real-world experience.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You seem to have lost track of what is being discussed. It's not how much training (or experience) is required for someone to become 'an electrician' and to start working 'as an electrician'. As is often mentioned here, there even appear to be '5-day' routes for achieving that! The discussion is about the amount of experience which is desirable for someone undertaking EICRs.

Well, actually the original question was:

all I want is a "recognised qualification" to install or work on LV domestic & light industrial. including being able to do PIR and EIC.

(Not sure why someone asking that thinks he should have "Sparky" in his name, but never mind.)

It was RF's reply which seemed to get the topic narrowed down to EICRs, which is a shame, because I think his general sentiment applies to the full scope of the original question.

A 5-day, or a 1-evening-a-week-for-10-weeks, course does not provide adequate training to do design & construction in domestic environments, let alone anything else. Nor does the full C&G route, because you still need experience to do the job properly.

There are two ways to gain that. One is working for and with other electricians who supervise and mentor you, come to your rescue when you get stuck, and so on. The other is to practise on your paying customers and to use internet fora when you get stuck.

I know which I think is the more responsible course, and which is the one householders should look for when choosing an electrician.

 

[bernardgreen]

One is working for and with other electricians who supervise and mentor you, come to your rescue when you get stuck, and so on.

Provided the mentoring is by a capable and concientious electrician that is the best way to learn the practicalities of electrical installation and test. To be mentored by a profit minded corner cutting "electrician" would be a very bad start to a career.

The theory of circuit design is a few days at most, the process of moving that circuit design to an installation design requires practical experience as well as basic rules and theory beyond electrical theory ( such as drilling joists without weakening them )

Learning to inspect and report on another person's work requires a lot of experience to recognise the warning signs of slip shod work that at first glance looks OK but has hidden errors. ommissions and hazards.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Provided the mentoring is by a capable and concientious electrician that is the best way to learn the practicalities of electrical installation and test. To be mentored by a profit minded corner cutting "electrician" would be a very bad start to a career.

Or to be apprenticed to someone who believes an apprentice is for making tea, running errands, sweeping up and being the butt of practical jokes.

The theory of circuit design is a few days at most,

Indeed it is, but when you've only got 5 days to teach people to pass a multiple guess exam which does not have any design questions in it then the topic doesn't even get a few minutes.

 

[SparkyTris]

(Not sure why someone asking that thinks he should have "Sparky" in his name, but never mind.)

possibly I is wrong but I believe the original definition of "Sparky" or "Sparks" is a nickname for a Radio Operator, the "Spark" being an allusion to the original (and rather impressive) spark-gap Tx's used at sea.

I've always found it rather odd that electricians seem to reserve the nickname with a degree of pride... surely the last thing you expect from an experienced electrician is sparks...

I presumed the etymology was that electrical and electromagnetic installations "grew up" at roughly the same time as radio comms, and probably involved the same spark-ridden amateur enthusiasts at the infancy stage.

Anyway. I certainly make no claim to being an Electrician. Hang on! or do I? I did my first rewire in 2005! Ive been doing loads since then, and nobody's been hurt and I havent caused any fires! When I got stuck I consulted experienced friends, books and the internet. is that 7 years experience or what?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

possibly I is wrong but I believe the original definition of "Sparky" or "Sparks" is a nickname for a Radio Operator, the "Spark" being an allusion to the original (and rather impressive) spark-gap Tx's used at sea.

True. But then a lavatory used to be somewhere you went to wash.

I've always found it rather odd that electricians seem to reserve the nickname with a degree of pride... surely the last thing you expect from an experienced electrician is sparks...

Unless they are deliberate..

I presumed the etymology was that electrical and electromagnetic installations "grew up" at roughly the same time as radio comms, and probably involved the same spark-ridden amateur enthusiasts at the infancy stage.

Fair enough.