Electric theft by EV owners causing charge points to be switched off.

[jacko555]

It does pretty much everything by itself - you just programme it and sit there! (OK, I exaggerate to make a point. I do still have to steer it, but compared to a 1980s ICE with manual transmission, it doesn't take much driving at all)!

when I "treat" myself in the Alfa now and again.

OK, I do admit that when I now drive the ICEs, I do enjoy high revs, the occasional wheel spin and throwing it round corners in a way you cannot in an EV.

 

[mattylad]

WTF is all this ICE business?
Even electric cars have in car entertainment systems...

As for the comment that poeple in terrace houses etc will still be able to charge using pavement chargers, they would have to be multiple chargers on all roads, as someone that lives in a terraced house and cannot park a car in front of it I have to park it where I can and that may be several streets away and not always in the same spot - so an electric car would be of no use to me.

 

[Avocet]

WTF is all this ICE business?
Even electric cars have in car entertainment systems...

As for the comment that poeple in terrace houses etc will still be able to charge using pavement chargers, they would have to be multiple chargers on all roads, as someone that lives in a terraced house and cannot park a car in front of it I have to park it where I can and that may be several streets away and not always in the same spot - so an electric car would be of no use to me.

Indeed. That's a recognised problem - likewise, people in flats. However, everyone with a car parks it *somewhere*, so the problem is with getting an electricity supply to that place. I don't think that's insurmountable, with the necessary political will.

 

[norseman]

Indeed. That's a recognised problem - likewise, people in flats. However, everyone with a car parks it *somewhere*, so the problem is with getting an electricity supply to that place. I don't think that's insurmountable, with the necessary political will.

At the end of the day the 'political will' is in fact to remove cars from the road, rather than facilitate their use.

 

[cwhaley]

I think everyone worries about the hypothetical long distance "emergency mission". The most likely one for me, will be something going wrong with my elderly parents, 150 miles away. That's well within my 200 mile real range, so happy days, just pop down there. The next thing will be "Ah, but what if you've just come back from a 180 mile trip AND THEN something goes wrong with your parents"? (Well, the honest answer to that, is that I'd grab my wife's car keys and use her car)! But then you get the "What if you've just come back from a 180 mile trip and something goes wrong with your parents and your wife is out"? And in that situation, yes, I'd have to visit a fast charger on the way and yes, it would add about another 20 minutes to a 150 mile trip.

But it's interesting that you have to get down to that sort of level of unlikeliness! Nobody would ever dream of applying that kind of contrived scenario to an ICE situation!
Since I've had the car, the only actual, unforeseen event was when the lad had to go back to university after Christmas, and the trains were on strike, so I had to take him. He's a good 250 miles away in Leicester, so there was no question of getting there on one charge. It meant I had to stop for a short break to charge - which I would have done anyway, on a trip that long. I could have stopped for about 10-15 minutes on a fast charger, but we actually stopped for 45 minutes while we had some lunch, so that reduced the amount of time I had to spend charging on the way back. It really wasn't a big deal.

But as for the other problems, yes, there are electric MPVs that probably have that much boot space. And yes, they are still way too expensive. Part of the reason for that, however, is because everyone is putting off buying an EV because they don't have an 800 mile range, so there are very few second hand ones and they haven't filtered down to the £800 mark, yet. But of course, that's very much a chicken-and-egg situation! The problem is that if we all keep waiting for "the future", there may not actually be one...

All very valid points for the most of us!

The crucial point for me though (putting the range limit / charging situation aside), is the cost. As a working married man with a family myself, I couldn't justify nor afford spending tens of thousands on a car which would - effectively - be a downgrade. It's not a case of 'putting off' an EV, it's a case of 'they're too expensive -- no thanks'.

It must be possible to make an EV cheap and accessible for the masses, but we know that won't happen...

 

[Avocet]

All very valid points for the most of us!

The crucial point for me though (putting the range limit / charging situation aside), is the cost. As a working married man with a family myself, I couldn't justify nor afford spending tens of thousands on a car which would - effectively - be a downgrade. It's not a case of 'putting off' an EV, it's a case of 'they're too expensive -- no thanks'.

It must be possible to make an EV cheap and accessible for the masses, but we know that won't happen...

I think we can blame Tesla for that. It's a pity but circumstance has just kind of led us down this road. In an attempt to make EVs "sexy" they brought out cars with way more power than was necessary, leading to needing far bigger batteries than was necessary. I think that has resulted in other manufacturers feeling the need to "follow suit". More mundane offerings, like the Leaf and Zoe, didn't seem to be where the market was - which is a pity, as they're more the sort of "ordinary" cars that "real" people can afford. I freely admit, that I have mine because it's a company car and it's not my money! I've never spent more than £1500 on a car, when shopping with my own money, and was expecting to wait a long time before EVs got down to "shed" money.

That said, a look at 2nd hand Leaf and Zoe prices, suggests that second hand values are holding up very well indeed. You won't pick up either for £800 yet! It will come with time, I'm sure, but what most people need, is for the "early adopters" to "prime" the 2nd hand market first, and the early adopters don't want Leafs (Leaves?) and Zoes!

It's not too dissimilar to how the ICE vehicle market was, 20 or 30 years after the first ICEs started to appear. Back then, the "motor cars" were also primarily toys for the wealthy. It will happen, though. I'm confident of that. And whilst purchase costs are high, running costs can be very low indeed, so there's that incentive too.

 

[robinbanks]

they would have to be multiple chargers on all roads

Good job they have multiple wires in multiple roads too then..

 

[robinbanks]

It's not too dissimilar to how the ICE vehicle market was

By "was"'you surely mean "is". A few years ago you could only get head up display, adaptive cruise, flappy paddle gearbox, keyless entry, "blah blah insert name of space age feature here blah" on your £100k Audi S8 etc

Few years later, the base model A3 has it and there is another set of futuristic toys on the premium model.

Early adopters pave the way at a premium, so to get their attention/cash one has to have that appeal

 

[mattylad]

Good job they have multiple wires in multiple roads too then..

What sort of stupid comment is that?
There may be wires in the roads but there are NOT charging points on them nor will there ever be because many are not suitable for charging points to be there.
In many locations the existing wires are also not suitable to support multiple cars charging via them.

 

[robinbanks]

It's a response to your nonsense comment that implies an EV couldn't work for you because it's not possible to charge an EV if you live in a terraced house.

The reasons given appear to be further unqualified nonsense

 

[Avocet]

By "was"'you surely mean "is". A few years ago you could only get head up display, adaptive cruise, flappy paddle gearbox, keyless entry, "blah blah insert name of space age feature here blah" on your £100k Audi S8 etc

Few years later, the base model A3 has it and there is another set of futuristic toys on the premium model.

Early adopters pave the way at a premium, so to get their attention/cash one has to have that appeal

Yes, fair comment. It has been going on since the dawn of motoring. The only thing I would say in this case, however, is that I think this time, it isn't entirely down to a free market situation where manufacturers have tried to tempt buyers with new and innovative features (at a premium price). This time, manufacturers are being pushed into it by regulators and are trying to tempt consumers to buy their wares.

 

[Avocet]

What sort of stupid comment is that?
There may be wires in the roads but there are NOT charging points on them nor will there ever be because many are not suitable for charging points to be there.
In many locations the existing wires are also not suitable to support multiple cars charging via them.

Can you put some figures on that? In what way are they "not suitable"? Is it the current carrying capacity you're worried about? Remember, that kerbside chargers don't have to be "fast" chargers. There seems to be a distinction that's growing, between "route" chargers and "destination" chargers. Route chargers (e.g. at motorway service stations) need to be fast. Very fast, in fact. A few hundred kW, ideally. However, destination chargers, where a vehicle is left for much longer periods of time, can afford to be much less powerful.

 

[norseman]

Can you put some figures on that? In what way are they "not suitable"? Is it the current carrying capacity you're worried about? Remember, that kerbside chargers don't have to be "fast" chargers. There seems to be a distinction that's growing, between "route" chargers and "destination" chargers. Route chargers (e.g. at motorway service stations) need to be fast. Very fast, in fact. A few hundred kW, ideally. However, destination chargers, where a vehicle is left for much longer periods of time, can afford to be much less powerful.

I always understood that a low input charge, delivered over an extended time period, is the best way to charge a conventional lead-acid battery & persistent rapid charging was considered bad practice.
Am I to assume that EV batteries are immune to damage caused by such rapid charging?

 

[Avocet]

I always understood that a low input charge, delivered over an extended time period, is the best way to charge a conventional lead-acid battery & persistent rapid charging was considered bad practice.
Am I to assume that EV batteries are immune to damage caused by such rapid charging?

Yes. However, Li-ion chemistry is a bit different. They can accept very high rates of charge without suffering too much, but only under the right temperature and state of charge conditions. Most manufacturers will say somewhere in the handbook, to try and keep the battery between 20 and 80% state of charge, most of the time. If an owner did that, and never fast-charged, they'd give their battery the easiest possible life. Unfortunately, real life ain't like that, and we sometimes have to do a long run. If my battery is at the right temperature (and assuming it is connected to a powerful enough charger, here's how the charging current varies:

It drops off a cliff after 80%! Mind you, the paltry 7 kW from an AC house charger, barely tickles it - let alone the 2.5 kW is charges at, when plugged into an ordinary 3-pin 13A socket!

What that does mean, in practical terms, is that on a long run, it's sometimes quicker overall for me to run it down to (say) 10%, then fast-charge the living daylights out of it to 50 or 60% twice, than to stop once and charge to (say) 80%.

 

[ericmark]

I like the idea of electric cars, as has been said, each day you start with a fully charged car, however for around 45 weeks a year, I could do without a car, bus, train, e-bike or even walking will get me where I need to go.

However hospital appointments can't do without a car, only 29 miles, but the buses are not early enough or late enough to get me there and back in a day. Holidays now tend to be in the UK, and looking at around 250 miles out and return, normally at night, so for most electric cars they will not make it, specially towing a caravan.

So my car is used on average once a week, so electric would work most of the time, but if I need to keep a petrol or diesel for the few runs I can't do with electric, then no point getting an electric. Basic its all or nothing.

But for electric to work, you need to be able to fill up en route. The 22 kW charge point in my village is the only one for miles, so either one would need to divert to find another charging point, or travel at least another 20 miles.

I saw the news of Rhyl having I think 10 charging points, come on, it's a sea side town full of visitors should be looking at 100's of charging points. In a sleepy town like Welshpool yes 10 is likely ample, but not a sea side town.

The point is the government wants us off the roads, it is easy to electrify trains, compared with other forms of transport, so lets see trains return, with parking at train stations etc. I can get to the local station easy, on my e-bike, but first train due 1st April, it does not run in the Winter.