electrician credentials

[ericmark]

The key thing is you don't need formal credentials to call yourself an electrician,

You do need some way to persuade the LABC to accept your signature. Or you will need to pay someone who is recognised by the LABC as having the skill to ensure the installation is safe.

C&G 2391 is the inspection and testing exam, but people who are not in the trade, want something they understand, so up to level 3 you don't get any letters behind ones name, in the main looking for level 5, but all these do not require updating, once one passes the exam, one can still use those letters without taking any re-freshers.

Once one reaches chartered status, then one needs to pay each year to use the credentials and one then has to ask, when they get alzheimer's, or the like, will they get thrown out, there was a discussion about this with the scheme providers, and it was pointed out how few people are thrown out, it could be because they leave anyway, but it is worrying that so few are thrown out.

 

[johnny2007]

There's and always will be some confusion for laymen and homeowners.
Can you DIY replace a socket?
Personally I do and it's never been clear to me if notification or certificate is needed.
Things could be clearer in the electrical world.
For example, with plumbing, we all know that anything to do with gas must be done by a certified gas safe.

 

[ericmark]

Things could be clearer in the electrical world.

The what is allowed without notification is laid out in building regulations part P. In Scotland a Warrant, and Wales and England is not the same.

For notifiable work, the LABC inspector can decide what he allows you to do. The main problem is the inspection and testing, which can be charged for on top of the LABC fee. So it can work out more expensive to DIY than to use a scheme member. The second is the time, they are allowed 2 weeks to inspect, so if they say your not to power up until inspected, then one can be without power for some time.

But technically there is nothing which can't be done DIY. As to gas, as far as I am aware, the gas safe restrictions are only for work which is charged for, DIY work is not stopped, I think it should be stopped, but the restriction just stops untrained tradesmen.

There are some electrician jobs which in order to be connected to the grid, the person doing them does require extra training, EV points, solar panels, batteries etc. Without the training and scheme membership it is hard, but not impossible, to get them connected to the grid.

For the electrician he should always inspect and test, there are two forms, the minor works and the installation certificate both free downloads from the IET. Anyone doing electrical work is an electrician. We all know often the DIY omits doing inspection and testing, but there is nothing to allow this omission, but without the test gear it is near impossible. We are looking at £500 to £1000 in general for the test equipment, it can be hired, at around £70 for the week.

It is not plain as to if you can omit some tests, it says enquiry is a valid method, so looking at an existing installation certificate and copying some details to the new one is it seems permitted, as is having an EICR done and again copying across the results.

I have looked at the installation certificates issued for work on my own house, in the main solar panel installation, and the certificate was down loaded, so there is no signature as such, the certificate has to be also sent to the LABC who publish the compliance or completion certificate, I assume they get the signed copy?

But to be frank, the details are rather vague, and I can't see how anyone could say today who did what by reading the certificate, I know I doubled up on my battery size, and I forgot to download the updated paperwork.

To my mind the paperwork should be posted to one, this having to down load it seems wrong.

 

[denso13]

what is allowed without notification is laid out in building regulations part P.

Nothing in part P about notification, it is of course in the approved document.

As to gas, as far as I am aware, the gas safe restrictions are only for work which is charged for, DIY work is not stopped

You'd still need to be as competent as a Gas Safe operative, which is very difficult to prove for DIY.

 

[jj4091]

Nothing in part P about notification, it is of course in the approved document.


You'd still need to be as competent as a Gas Safe operative, which is very difficult to prove for DIY.

Doesn't sound like it's difficult

 

[ericmark]

Nothing in part P about notification, it is of course in the approved document.

Good point, and as said I would not work with gas, even if no laws to stop me, maybe because I have worked with gas, and know how dangerous it is, in gas powered power stations, and gas pipe lines, OK they used a lot more gas to what is supplied to the home, but I know the dangers, and in the main, gas or electric, it is working without test equipment which causes the dangers.

I look at my array of loop impedance, insulation, and clamp-on ammeters etc, and the approx £500 price tag for cheapest, and any wonder DIY people don't have them.

The one good thing the schemes do, is ensure members have the test equipment required. And I know from bitter experience the problem when a bit of equipment fails.

On sending a test instrument for calibration, and returning it took 6 months to find out it had been out of calibration for all of that time. Used in house, so not so bad re-testing stuff, but just think of the problems for a sole trader electrician to find out all the testing done in last 6 months was invalid, what would you do? Prey nothing was out of spec, and cross fingers and carry on, or return to every job, and retest ones work? Or simply stop trading? Not sure if insurance would cover.

So I always test same socket in my house before going out to do any work, so worst case, should only have a days worth of testing to re-do.

At work, always had more than one tester, and we would regular compare results, an insulation tester easy to have a one meg resistor to test, it is the loop impedance tester which is the problem.

 

[denso13]

Doesn't sound like it's difficult

View attachment 424763

It is but dodgy tradesmen, doctors or pilots is a different issue.

 

[ericmark]

I got some one gas safe to do father-in-laws central heating and gas fire, he sealed the flue brick with gaffer tape which pealed off again.

For the unburnt gas he seemed good, for the exhaust gas, he did not seem to care. My own house I had found same fault, and I had plastered up where the flue brick was, maybe not correct grade of plaster, who knows, but it did not fall off again.

But what ever trade there are the good and bad and near enough, and what about these, not cheap at £54 but the debate is more is it good enough? I would say no, as it passes above the 1.38 Ω permitted for a ring final, but it is within range for a 2.5 mm² radial, but not looking at credentials but equipment, I have always worked cards in, and it has always been someone else who needed to buy test equipment.

 

[ebee]

With test equipment you can get ends of the scale 1/ A firm with 4 or 5 Electricians who all use one set of test equipment owned by the firm and thrown about and dropped about by all of them and they do not care cos they dont pay for it and is calibrated once per year or 2/ A one man band who buys the test equipment effectively out of his own pocket and takes care of it and self calibrates weekly/monthly and a yearly calibration as in 1/ and both entities 1/ and 2/ are both registered and deemed competant.
You might find any number of entities fitting a description somewhere between those two ends of that scale!

 

[SimonH2]

Nothing in part P about notification, it is of course in the approved document.

Being pedantic, it's in schedule 4 to The Building Regulations (2010.)

You'd still need to be as competent as a Gas Safe operative, which is very difficult to prove for DIY.

No, you need to be competent to perform the work in question. Not quite the same thing.
Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998
3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

As to who may or may not work on gas :
3.—(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.
Which basically rules anyone employed or self employed. Which leads to an interesting question: if someone is working in their own home, but happens to be self employed in an unrelated trade, does that make it illegal ?

On sending a test instrument for calibration, and returning it took 6 months to find out it had been out of calibration for all of that time. Used in house, so not so bad re-testing stuff, but just think of the problems for a sole trader electrician to find out all the testing done in last 6 months was invalid, what would you do?

Check calibration every day with a test box or Cal Card ?

At work, always had more than one tester, and we would regular compare results, an insulation tester easy to have a one meg resistor to test, it is the loop impedance tester which is the pproblem.

If low and high resistance scales are OK, it's highly unlikey the loop impedance scales will be out. For an MFT thatbis, a bitbharder with separate instruments.

I got some one gas safe to do father-in-laws central heating and gas fire, he sealed the flue brick with gaffer tape which pealed off again.

Similar. One of our rental properties was built using a piece of flexible flue liner instead of twinwall flue. The vendor had that sorted before we bought - using a Gas Safe engineer. A couple of years later, the tenant mentioned having heard a bump in the attic after the smoke test showed the flue wasn't working for the fire. Turned out they'd fitted the twinwall sections upside down, not fixed it properly, and after a while the gaffer tape gave up.
So not only did the initial build get it wrong without a CORGI engineer noticing. Neither did the Gas Safe engineer notice when fitting a new fire forbthe previous owner. The third set messed up correcting the first error.

Yeah, just like with electrics, using a registered engineer is a guarantee of good work only for gas, it's a legal requirement.

 

[denso13]

Being pedantic, it's in schedule 4 to The Building Regulations (2010.)

I know, I was pointing out that Part P was being confused with Approved Document P, in this case.

No, you need to be competent to perform the work in question. Not quite the same thing.

I think it is, in effect. Being competent includes passing the relevant ACS assessments, as Gas Safe people do. Without the appropriate training you can't be competent.