Extending Flex using Butt Crimps

[Spark123]

Most sparks would use 3 core (2c&E) and tape the green and yellow with black, oversleeve it at a push.

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!! Never ever ever use a CPC for anything other than a Protective conductor.

I'd do it by mounting an outlet box adjacent to the actuator and using 3c+e, terminate the earth into the box and connect it to the protective conductor of the circuit supplying the appliance.
You can even use terminal blocks if the outlet box is to remain accessible.

That wasn't recommendation,heavens! It was an observation of what most saprkies would do, usually because they are too tight to buy a new drumof 3c&E flex. I use sparkie in the derogatory sense, they make sparks all over the shop.

A sparkie is just a slang word for an electrician, if you are referring to a sparky as something else then you need to say so in your post as the OP can just take it to mean electrician and take your advice as posted. Anyone who decides it is OK to oversleeve a CPC with black tape and use is as a line conductor isn't a proper electrician and in my eyes is a cowboy. Their is always more than one way to accomplish a given task but what you posted is not one of them.

 

[Spark123]

Spark123 - your solution makes most sense as it allows the actuaror to be replaced easily if need be. However, I went to a lot of trouble to get the rafters and main beam routed so the flex could be concealed and I don't want to ruin the look with outlet boxes. Just means I'll have to remove a decorative cover from the main beam if I need to change the actuator.

Can you fit a small adaptable box inside the decorative cover?

I'll go with 4-core flex and join with red crimps unless you think this is wrong. I bought a fancy CK ratchet crimper too.
Re the CPC, should I just leave it loose both ends or fit a crimp as FrankE suggested?

If there is a CPC provided then it should be connected to the protective conductor of the circuit otherwise someone can connect a metal accessory thinking it is earthed when it isn't.

 

[FrankE]

When working for GEC Large Steam Turbines we had separate crimp pliers for each size of crimp and they were calibrated and for 1mm we used different crimp pliers to 1.5mm even though the crimps were the same.
Orange 1mm and Red 1.5mm the same applied to 4mm and 6mm the crimps were same but pliers were different.

I got into a lot of trouble for using my own crimp pliers as they were not calibrated also for using my own meter as not calibrated. I was a different world where the motor and pump were lined up to within 0.001 inch. No allowing for layrub coupling taking up any out of true. But 5 years later on next shut down still had same coupling on all motors so seemed it did work.

Same in oil and gas (with the crimpers), not that anyone would ever have had the need to use their own intruments. New Fluke Exs and lop calibrators all round.

jkayes, ericmark talking of trouble with crimps has prompted me to ilustrate the trouble that can be caused by sparks (not electricians) or installers using cores for what they shouldn;t be used for and inappropriate crimping.
I also got told off for visiting a rig and asking around for the electrican asking him "are you the sparky"?

Why would any electrician call themselves a sparky, when that's a derogatory term?

The electrician I mean sparks who left the site because I was "impossible" (for going round and checking his work after him, insisting he dress cores in at JBs, use crimps at rotating machinery, not leave stray strands, test the crimp after fitting leave helices to alow burner and instrument retrieval, sequence terminal blocks, fit saddles at the same height) left a grand of damage plus time with his crimping and terminating skillz.

Before the winter break I saw him connect U1 V1 W1 together(instead of U2 V2 W2) on an extract fan motor (that's shorting all three phases together), I asked him WFTF that was and he said the motor has to be connected in Delta and pointed at the manual but he corrected it then asked about star delta starters (which aren;t appropriate for the installation). Two guys came to replace him so were advised they must check everything from the panel in that plant room before commissioning.

They obviously didn't - he hadn't crimped the crimps he had only placed on one Air Handling Unit motor. One crimp came off and the food hall supply fan motor burned out . He missed crimping the conductor on two of the phases on the extract motor on the same AHU with very nearly the same result, they pulled off in my hand. I cant be eveywhere and if they insist on sending sparks and not electricians the it's their own lookout if they introduce more problems

On the other kitchens air handling unit he couldn;t be bothered fitting a earth tag frying pan on the 4c SWA (armoured cable) into an ABS J/B for connection to the supply motor and had it in his head grey is always for earth when you don;t use the armour (because can't be bothered fitting the earth ring). So he used the spare neutral conductor for a phase although correct at the other end. Caught that one.
On the PWM controller for the kitchen extract he again used grey for a phase at the controller and for earth at the J/B and connected everythigng cotrrectly at the load side of the isolator but termnated the into PE (earth) in the controller. One expensive PWM controller down (though the M&E specifier forgot to add any means of speed control)

On a J/B for the de-stratification fans (stop the build up of hot air at ceiling height) he chopped a phase conductor, didn't tape it up but terminated the cable into 415V at the panel, giving me an almighty dunt. This is guy who thought himself a cut above the other electricians because he just paid for a Comp'Ex' and offshore survival. He wants to work offshore. That will involve doing electrical work on equipment in potentially explosive atmospheres. If he doesn;t cause an explosion (though equipment in gaseous areas is rated to handle such contained arcing) that will involve high value plant, electronics....

 

[kevinduff]

do we need to bear in mind that any cable connection has to be available for inspection so if concealed under moulding at some point in time it may have to be removed which may cause damage to your moulding

 

[toasty]

do we need to bear in mind that any cable connection has to be available for inspection so if concealed under moulding at some point in time it may have to be removed which may cause damage to your moulding

Kevin, I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to crimped or soldered joints. Just screw connectors (like choc block, DIN rail terminations or junction boxes)

 

[kevinduff]

hi

If you have a look at the regs (17th) page 106 reg 526.3, this states every connection shall be available for inspection including welded, solered, brazed or by compression tool

 

[kevinduff]

Jkays

Do as previously advised, use a juntion box of some sort suitable and leave the earth as what is is supposed to be, a protrective conductor.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[empip]

hi

If you have a look at the regs (17th) page 106 reg 526.3, this states every connection shall be available for inspection including welded, solered, brazed or by compression tool

How about the words '...except for the following...' ... Been done to death, and beyond, hereabouts.

 

[kevinduff]

my appologies, just dug out the regs from my car and your right Im turning 57 and I think dementure is setting in. So what is your interpretation of 526.5 , would putting the joint in wood be a combustuble material?

 

[Spark123]

Why would any electrician call themselves a sparky, when that's a derogatory term?

Because I don't believe it to be derogatory - just a slang word and by the way this thread has gone, I believe so did the original poster.

The electrician I mean sparks who left the site because I was "impossible" (for going round and checking his work after him, insisting he dress cores in at JBs, use crimps at rotating machinery, not leave stray strands, test the crimp after fitting leave helices to alow burner and instrument retrieval, sequence terminal blocks, fit saddles at the same height) left a grand of damage plus time with his crimping and terminating skillz.

If his workmanship is poor then you did right to pull him up, however publishing what can be taken to be advice on an open internet forum which is outright dangerous, if you post something which is dangerous then you need to state clearly that it is dangerous.

Before the winter break I saw him connect U1 V1 W1 together(instead of U2 V2 W2) on an extract fan motor (that's shorting all three phases together), I asked him WFTF that was and he said the motor has to be connected in Delta and pointed at the manual but he corrected it then asked about star delta starters (which aren;t appropriate for the installation). Two guys came to replace him so were advised they must check everything from the panel in that plant room before commissioning.

If he was that bad then why was he still there? I can't imagine that connecting the bar across U1 V1 W1 will cause a short circuit unless the phase wires were connected to U1 V1 W1 also. Given it is a bit unconventional to have the bar across U1 V1 W1 and phases to W2 U2 V2 it will still be star.
Does anyone still install star delta starters? Everything I now see seems to be DOL delta with VSDs.

They obviously didn't - he hadn't crimped the crimps he had only placed on one Air Handling Unit motor. One crimp came off and the food hall supply fan motor burned out . He missed crimping the conductor on two of the phases on the extract motor on the same AHU with very nearly the same result, they pulled off in my hand. I cant be eveywhere and if they insist on sending sparks and not electricians the it's their own lookout if they introduce more problems

Was the overload set incorrectly or the motor small enough to not need one?
If he is that bad then he isn't an electrician, (nor a spark.)

On the other kitchens air handling unit he couldn;t be bothered fitting a earth tag frying pan on the 4c SWA (armoured
cable) into an ABS J/B for connection to the supply motor and had it in his head grey is always for earth when you don;t use the armour (because can't be bothered fitting the earth ring). So he used the spare neutral conductor for a phase although correct at the other end. Caught that one.

Fair enough, he needs training big time. He doesn't have sufficient knowledge to prevent danger or injury hence under the EAWR should not be carrying out this type of work, nor should you or your company be allowing him to.

 

[skenk]

Single core in wood would be no good but as the flex is (presumably) double insulated it would be ok, no? (yet another reason not to use the cpc of t&e for anything but cpc.)

To the OP: Yes crimp together using 4-core, connect the earth at feed end, terminate in a small choc block at the other end (run it all the way to the actuators if necessary) this will allow testing to be carried out at the furthest point. Put heat-shrink sleeving and/or self-amalgamating tape over the crimps (stagger them so they don't overlap) and exposed single cores to maintain continuity of the sheath/double insulation.

ADVICE ONLY - IF YOUR HOUSE BURNS DOWN IT'S NOT MY FAULT!

FrankE - just accept you were wrong to give dodgy advice!

 

[jkayes]

FrankE - the actuators are 230V and rated 0.32A. I am connecting them both to a single 10A retractive switch. This in turn is connected to a 30A ring main via a (5A) fused switch.

If I use 3c&e cable as you suggest, should it be 2.5 mm or can it be smaller between the retractive switch and the actuators? What about between the retractive switch and the fused switch?

Can I also use a 5 amp junction box to connect the 3c&e to the actuator's flex or are these only approved for lighting circuits?